Figures without vertex groups ! Done !

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Agreed completely.

    But low poly "control figures" or control props make the figures way more complicated then required.
    Personally, I like neither of those in default or native Poser figures.

    Here the bones address the geometry directly through the weightmap/bulge map.
    Simple, clean and efficient.

    Every content creator and or end user is gonna have a ball if PP12 could bring this on the table.

    This is just a test "proof of concept" and can certainly be improved upon.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Right. I wanted to rig my figures that way but without a means of direct selection it would be self defeating.

    If they implement a way to select bones directly then its the final step towards single mesh rigging.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Yes, and the direct manipulator is also "blind" for bones. LOL.
    As I said, tests running, and there are certainly ways to get this better and better.

    But a lot of Pro versus a few contra. (I you like obj file quality maintained through the life of figures and clothing.)

    No more weld cracks possible, and no more double verts possible alone are worth to investigate this path.
    Night-night all, now I 'm gonna bed-bed.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Wouldn't the downside to this be that morphs made for the figure would create a massive .pz3 file size compared to a grouped figure?

  • You can add a grouped skeleton to it, and it will work just like any other figure does in Poser. The only problem with it, is the cr2 size, and transferring it to clothes..

  • Poser Ambassadors

    No, only the vertex delta of a morph is stored in a cr2.
    The verts that do not move create no delta's.

    Just like now : Load a FBM on an existing figure.
    Only the "concerned groups" get the delta's and a morph dial.
    The groups where no verts move get no delta's and no morph dial.

    Euh, thinking about this, It's been years that I created or loaded a morph through a group. I always create and load FBM. And only the "body actor" and the concerned groups get the delta's and the morph dial.

    You could open this further. (No clue what the Poser team will ultimately do but) :::

    • One could create/load a FBM to the obj file. => Only delta's stored
    • One could add the option to create a morph using the weight/bulge map. => Only weight delta's stored. => This would eliminate close to 100% of the existing JCM's requirements.
    • And a lot of customers are asking for UV map morph or transfer.

  • I'm glad you are excited by this but we could rig without groups since weightmaps were introduced into the app. I'm surprised you were unaware. The hard part was selection of body parts. Now that there are control chips, you really don't need to group at all, as long as you let people know there's a small learning curve to using the figure because selection is handled with control chips. Kudos to you for exploring the idea beyond that YouTube video I made a few years back. It's good to see it working on a full figure. Keep at it!

  • @Teyon Link! Link, please!

  • Poser Ambassadors

    hello Teyon, thanks for the nice words.

    Yes, it is an experiment as a lot of the workflow I am using is certainly not production ready.
    There are some good points but also some bad points.
    Coming out of the setup room after you added the bones you get 2 things :

    • Figure, a "empty ghost figure".
    • Figure _1SETUP => This one (prop) has all the bones, the geometry, and requires the textures.

    It is also this last one that you need to paint the WM/Bulge map on.

    There is more to this. It can be done, but at this stage?
    It is not production ready, and it does not interact with the Poser tools available.

    The direct manipulator does not see bones.
    Right click => Select gets you nothing either.

    A lot of GOOD points, but the integration needs to be improved upon.

    Yes, one can add a LowPoly, or one can add control props, but the general idea was to simplify things.

    To get more content creator on board we need to make things "simple, solid, and failsafe".

    Having a single group prop/mesh/figure and a weight/bulge map gets us on the right track. Now we need Poser to "see" these things more clearly without further complicating the cr2.

    Best regards all, have a nice day.

  • @vilters said in Figures without vertex groups ! Done !:

    To get more content creator on board we need to make things "simple, solid, and failsafe".

    Now that's odd. Just last week you said there were too many content creators hanging around.

    And, sorry, with content creation nothing is "failsafe" ever.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    The GOOD :

    • When saving the figure to library => Poser saves out a GOOD quality obj file but does create a vertex group NO_BONE.

    • FBM from this obj file can be loaded into the figure/mesh/prop as Object => Load Morph target. => So even Poser 11 (non Pro) can load FBM. Because Poser sees this "figure" as a prop with bones. NICE!

    • Existing Clothing conforms properly and FITS (if you rigged the new figure exactly as the old one) => That is normal behaver.

    • Existing Poses work as before if you rigged the new system correct.

    • One does NOT need a low res cage, or control props either. It simply works as expected so far.

    The less good news :

    • Bones are only selectable from the drop down menu or through the Hierarchy Editor. There is no "on screen" selection possible any more.
      => Here is where the Poser team should make improvements to make the bones visible and selectable to avoid a low res cage and/or control props.

    It can all be done, but it is not simple "plug and play" at this stage.

    To be continued.

  • You said fbm work. What about people? Do they work too?

  • how would I pose the eyes? I rely on the little red circle that V4 has around the iris so I can pose the eyes.

  • @ghostship said in Figures without vertex groups ! Done !:

    how would I pose the eyes? I rely on the little red circle that V4 has around the iris so I can pose the eyes.

    You can display the joint center, use a point at prop, lots of ways to do it

  • @shvrdavid I've tried that before: PITA lol

  • Ok have to fix my question. Didn't see my phone auto corrected me. When I asked if people work I meant if pbm work.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    FBM and Partial Body Morphs work just fine. No worries here.
    Just load the morphs when the figure/prop is in its "zero" pose". (Mandatory : The figure/prop "has" to be in its true zero pose when you load the morph in this system. Then , all works as before.
    Wanna make Elf ears? Wanna make Vampire teeth? Wanna make a very slim or overweight figure? No problems at all so far.

    @ghostship @shvrdavid
    Eyeballs/Cornea combinations : => I have 2 working options and looking at a third.
    That's the fun about Poser: Always multiple options possible. LOL.

    The only problem that would prevent an automatic conversion system to go single mesh is all that loose and intersecting and unwelded geometry that is inside most mouths. (The innermouth, the tongue, all the teeth.)

    I build the figure you see above by extruding the innermouth from the inner lip loop backwards.
    Then extruded the gums from here, and extruded the teeth from the gums.
    And I extruded the tongue from the lower mouth part.
    All properly extruded from the single mesh.

    The boots (welded into the figure), the hair (unwelded just above the main figure), all have a purpose, and all continue to work as before.

    Test continue tonight. Have a nice day all.

  • @Teyon control groups add so many props into the hierarchy that it is very hard to scroll through all the actual body parts when looking with Hierarchy tab.

  • @ibr_remote everything has a pro and con. Deciding what to use and when really depends on your need. If you're a person who spends a lot of time in the hierarchy editor, it's probably not the way to go. If you're the kind of person who just wants to have an easier time selecting a ghost bone visually, then it's great.

  • @eclark1849 said in Figures without vertex groups ! Done !:

    @Teyon Link! Link, please!

    There you go. It's 5 years old and I don't think it has audio. I could be wrong. Anyway, I also briefly talked about this in a thread here I thought...or maybe it was at RDNA? I can't remember.