Figures without vertex groups ! Done !

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Well, experimenting full bore, but looking good.

    There are some serious tricks involved, but this is done inside PoserPro11.

    Here some preview screengrabs : One figure has NO VERTEX groups at ALL !

    • First all vertex groups removed in Blender.
    • Loaded as a single group prop (File => Import Wavefront obj, all checkboxes left empty)
    • Goto Setup room to create the bones.
    • Then open Joint editor and paint the weightmaps. => This is the HARD part as there are some tricks required here.
    • Tricks by far not ready for a tutorial.


    FUN ! FUN ! FUN !

  • Would you explain what you mean by this and why it's important please vilters?

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Too early in the experiment to come to conclusions.

    • But if this continues to work as it does?
      => It is not an evolution but a revolution to Poser.

    • The END of weldcracks.

    • The END of Poser breaking up obj files when saving props or figures or clothing

    • The END of the REQUIREMENT to DELETE and replace ALL Poser saved obj files.

    • Conforming and cloth room clothing can now use the same obj file without worry or reworking.

    • Too many advantages to sum them all up here right now at 03:00AM

    • Content creators don't have to worry about creating vertex groups any more but concentrate on the obj file, the material zones and the textures.

    See Video 4 in the "Poser2Blender2 Poser" series on my YouTube channel.

    To early for final conclusions, but looking pretty good so far.
    Best regards, night night all. Tony

  • Poser Ambassadors

    And what are you using to select the body parts?

    That's the problem with this method of rigging. The only options for selection are control props or using the drop-down menus to select body parts. Most people would get frustrated with that pretty quickly.

  • Poser Ambassadors


    The bones my friend, the bones are available and visible in the parameters palette.
    Just like the groups were before.
    The selection process for bend, twist, and side-side stay the same as before.

    It's not all Gold that shines, and the Poser team can certainly improve on my tests, but as I wrote above? => It's a revolution to work this way.

    NO vertex groups, NO double verts, NO weld cracks possible, NO WAY that Poser can breack the obj file.. Ha-ha-ha-, No welds.....

    Joint setup and weightmap painting, all stays exactly the same.
    But there are some tips and tricks involved (inside Poser) to get there.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Oh, and "Poses", load just the same as before too.
    Or the memory dot poses, also work as before.

    But you are right. There's no "on screen" selection any more.
    Want a bone to bend, twist or side-side => Parameters palette => Select => Dial or tap in the number.

    I'm sure the Poser team can finetune this process for PP12.
    Too many good things.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    I know the parameter dials remain the same. The problem is that in order to get to each body part that way you have to select it from the dropdown menu instead of selecting it in the viewport on the figure.

    Essentially what you are doing is using ghost bones to rig the figure. but there is no geometry to allow for individual body part selection.

    There is the alternative to create a low poly skeleton to act as a control rig, for the figure to conform to, and allow for individual body part selection that way. Or control props.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Agreed completely.

    But low poly "control figures" or control props make the figures way more complicated then required.
    Personally, I like neither of those in default or native Poser figures.

    Here the bones address the geometry directly through the weightmap/bulge map.
    Simple, clean and efficient.

    Every content creator and or end user is gonna have a ball if PP12 could bring this on the table.

    This is just a test "proof of concept" and can certainly be improved upon.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Right. I wanted to rig my figures that way but without a means of direct selection it would be self defeating.

    If they implement a way to select bones directly then its the final step towards single mesh rigging.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Yes, and the direct manipulator is also "blind" for bones. LOL.
    As I said, tests running, and there are certainly ways to get this better and better.

    But a lot of Pro versus a few contra. (I you like obj file quality maintained through the life of figures and clothing.)

    No more weld cracks possible, and no more double verts possible alone are worth to investigate this path.
    Night-night all, now I 'm gonna bed-bed.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Wouldn't the downside to this be that morphs made for the figure would create a massive .pz3 file size compared to a grouped figure?

  • You can add a grouped skeleton to it, and it will work just like any other figure does in Poser. The only problem with it, is the cr2 size, and transferring it to clothes..

  • Poser Ambassadors

    No, only the vertex delta of a morph is stored in a cr2.
    The verts that do not move create no delta's.

    Just like now : Load a FBM on an existing figure.
    Only the "concerned groups" get the delta's and a morph dial.
    The groups where no verts move get no delta's and no morph dial.

    Euh, thinking about this, It's been years that I created or loaded a morph through a group. I always create and load FBM. And only the "body actor" and the concerned groups get the delta's and the morph dial.

    You could open this further. (No clue what the Poser team will ultimately do but) :::

    • One could create/load a FBM to the obj file. => Only delta's stored
    • One could add the option to create a morph using the weight/bulge map. => Only weight delta's stored. => This would eliminate close to 100% of the existing JCM's requirements.
    • And a lot of customers are asking for UV map morph or transfer.

  • I'm glad you are excited by this but we could rig without groups since weightmaps were introduced into the app. I'm surprised you were unaware. The hard part was selection of body parts. Now that there are control chips, you really don't need to group at all, as long as you let people know there's a small learning curve to using the figure because selection is handled with control chips. Kudos to you for exploring the idea beyond that YouTube video I made a few years back. It's good to see it working on a full figure. Keep at it!

  • @Teyon Link! Link, please!

  • Poser Ambassadors

    hello Teyon, thanks for the nice words.

    Yes, it is an experiment as a lot of the workflow I am using is certainly not production ready.
    There are some good points but also some bad points.
    Coming out of the setup room after you added the bones you get 2 things :

    • Figure, a "empty ghost figure".
    • Figure _1SETUP => This one (prop) has all the bones, the geometry, and requires the textures.

    It is also this last one that you need to paint the WM/Bulge map on.

    There is more to this. It can be done, but at this stage?
    It is not production ready, and it does not interact with the Poser tools available.

    The direct manipulator does not see bones.
    Right click => Select gets you nothing either.

    A lot of GOOD points, but the integration needs to be improved upon.

    Yes, one can add a LowPoly, or one can add control props, but the general idea was to simplify things.

    To get more content creator on board we need to make things "simple, solid, and failsafe".

    Having a single group prop/mesh/figure and a weight/bulge map gets us on the right track. Now we need Poser to "see" these things more clearly without further complicating the cr2.

    Best regards all, have a nice day.

  • @vilters said in Figures without vertex groups ! Done !:

    To get more content creator on board we need to make things "simple, solid, and failsafe".

    Now that's odd. Just last week you said there were too many content creators hanging around.

    And, sorry, with content creation nothing is "failsafe" ever.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    The GOOD :

    • When saving the figure to library => Poser saves out a GOOD quality obj file but does create a vertex group NO_BONE.

    • FBM from this obj file can be loaded into the figure/mesh/prop as Object => Load Morph target. => So even Poser 11 (non Pro) can load FBM. Because Poser sees this "figure" as a prop with bones. NICE!

    • Existing Clothing conforms properly and FITS (if you rigged the new figure exactly as the old one) => That is normal behaver.

    • Existing Poses work as before if you rigged the new system correct.

    • One does NOT need a low res cage, or control props either. It simply works as expected so far.

    The less good news :

    • Bones are only selectable from the drop down menu or through the Hierarchy Editor. There is no "on screen" selection possible any more.
      => Here is where the Poser team should make improvements to make the bones visible and selectable to avoid a low res cage and/or control props.

    It can all be done, but it is not simple "plug and play" at this stage.

    To be continued.

  • You said fbm work. What about people? Do they work too?

  • how would I pose the eyes? I rely on the little red circle that V4 has around the iris so I can pose the eyes.