Some observations and hopefully open discussion



  • Having been around since Poser 3 I've seen Poser mature but a couple of things still irk me particularly with content.

    Conforming clothing - introduced in Poser 4, why haven't more vendors picked up on dynamics? It's been there since Poser 5.

    Conforming hair - been around for what seems like forever and yes the hair room is a real pain and needs an overhaul (Carrara's is great actually, much easier to use) and if you have a low end computer I can see running the simulation would be a real concern. But there are some really talented folk out there that can and have made some great dynamic hair.

    These points lead us to the discussion of figures in Poser, and I don't want this to degenerate into a DAZ / Poser bashing war. However, Genesis 2 is usable in Poser via DSON and after a bit of converting so is Genesis 3 and unless you add more morphs the converted Genesis 3 figure is good to go whenever you want to use it, the problem is converting all the Genesis 3 clothing and hair so the figures have something to wear and aren't bald.

    From my point of view there is an opening here in the community to create content and open up the use of the later DAZ figures within Poser and whilst I am a reasonable texture artist, I'm not a modeler and I did try the vendor route but found I just didn't have that drive to be able to push the limits to get up there in the top handful of successful vendors, I was always stuck somewhere in the middle and the return wasn't worth the effort put in.

    So I guess my main point is that there are features in Poser that simply are not being utilized to their fullest potential.

    What do others think?



  • There are several reasons why dynamics haven't become more popular. Neither are compatible with DS and many vendors understandably don't want to limit their user base. Many users want instant art. They want or need to be able to create several images a day. It's a whole lot easier if you can just load some clothes and have them fit right away rather than setting up and running simulations. The hair room is a pain in several body parts. I have used it so I'm speaking from experience. I've spent months on one hairdo and often times have it turn out unusable. A vendor can't afford to waste that much time. Draping there is even worse than the cloth room. Legacy draping takes forever, you often lose most of your style and collisions are hit and miss. Bullet draping doesn't collide unless you make 3 blood sacrifices under a blue moon to the poser collision god while chanting the Iliad backwards and running the simulation. I know some styles don't need simulations. If you can create those, great, but many won't still won't use it because it's strand based. (Though in truth, I don't see any difference in render times with recent versions.) And some people can't seem to wrap their head around the clothroom and make it work. I don't understand this as I have little problem with it, but I've never worked with them and they don't elaborate. I'm not saying they're wrong, I just don't understand it. Than being said, I don't have a problem using dynamics. These are reasons I’ve seen in the forums. I'd rather not drape hair for the reasons given, but I do and I use several short hair styles that don’t need to be draped. I often use the clothroom and will even convert conformers to dynamic because the conformer either doesn’t lay right or doesn’t have the morph I need.



  • @redphantom said in Some observations and hopefully open discussion:

    Bullet draping doesn't collide unless you make 3 blood sacrifices under a blue moon to the poser collision god while chanting the Iliad backwards and running the simulation.

    This is true.

    I tried this and I only managed to summon Cthulhu.

    And for that I apologize.



  • @tastiger How much do you charge to texture a model?



  • @eclark1849 said in Some observations and hopefully open discussion:

    @tastiger How much do you charge to texture a model?

    It's been that long since I was a vendor and I have only made stuff for myself in recent times, so to be honest I really haven't a clue - I'm guessing it would depend on which model and the UV map(s) as well as the resource photos used.



  • @tastiger said in Some observations and hopefully open discussion:
    ..

    So I guess my main point is that there are features in Poser that simply are not being utilized to their fullest potential.

    What do others think?

    I agree, somewhat, with your focus points.

    Dynamic cloth has always been strong for Poser. With fairly little experience, the user can get excellent results.

    But... ONLY with models that are created correctly for dynamics simulations in Poser. There are a bunch of freebies and lower-end dynamic models and/or converted conforming clothing pieces that aren't going to work very well with Poser's dynamics no matter what settings someone chooses and this can put people off.

    To improve Poser's dynamic appeal (see what I did, there? :) ) better guidance in the Dynamics Room, inclusion of good descriptions for the various settings, the addition of a "Dynamics Light" tab (Like in the Mat Room) and a range of decent Presets along with some sample content and a scripted guide would certainly help new dynamics users. (ie: There isn't much wrong with Poser's Dynamics Room. It's how its used, what's used in it and the knowledge of the user. Oh - And the power of their machine, since dynamics aren't cheap.)

    For the Hair Room... It's a brobdingnagian nightmare that, in my hands, yields little more than either "Exploded Cat" or "Something I Dug Out of the Drain" hair effects. The list of available, decent, non-eye-threatening, dynamic hair models for Poser available on the collective marketplace can likely fit on a post-card. Maybe a business card, if you discount the stuff that was made pre-V4. I will say nothing about the materials being used on such hair since there is very, very, little to be said about them.

    I have yet to see a Poser render, using any available engine, that renders Poser's Dynamic Hair in such quality that it looks better than the "Before" pictures for real patients who are candidates for hair replacement therapy.

    I would gladly pay a good deal more for Poser if it moved forward towards true innovation there and Smith Micro actually did something with the Hair Room, like revamp it to function/produce like some of the more recent advances with 3D hair/dynamics have done. As it stands right now, and in all the iterations I have used, Poser's Hair Room is the red-headed-step-child of Poser.

    PS - I do not know if there are any sublicensing issues with Poser's Hair Room and the algorithms/mechanics it uses. There might be and, if so, that could cause innovation/change issues and leave us with dead-ends. Above my paygrade to comment on that.



  • I think the reason there is little dynamic hair for V4 is most had given up on the hair room by the time she came on the scene.

    I agree the hair room is the red headed step child of Poser. I still try to make stuff in it because I'm a masochist. I've said before that if a new hair room were easy to use, backwards compatibility probably wouldn't matter. There are only a few styles available. No one would lose much. And I for one would remake what I've already done if it wasn't bad.

    People have talked about styling tools in the past. Brushes and scissors have been requested by many, even me. But this morning, I'm thinking splines with the ability to grab and move individual vertices and the ability to copy the splines and then manipulated individually might be the easiest. What do others think?



  • @redphantom I wish Poser had Blender's robust dynamics and Blender had Poser's ease of use.



  • @redphantom said in Some observations and hopefully open discussion:

    I think the reason there is little dynamic hair for V4 is most had given up on the hair room by the time she came on the scene.

    What do others think?

    You are correct - The Hair Room died on the operating table.

    I think that "hair brushes" and styling tools would not fix the issues with the Hair Room, to be honest. There are equitable tools already present that, even if made easier to use, would still functionally orphan the Hair Room from use by most users.

    If the current mechanics and capabilities of the Hair Room, and the quality of hair it can produce, are not brought up to better standards, then I think what is needed is a "converter" that can accurately translate prop/conforming hair geometry into spline/strand geometry. Why? To bring more attention to the Hair Room and to encourage users to actually use it. With this renewed attention and experimentation by users, it may be possible that content creators would have more of a reason to exploit the Hair Room and to help bring much-needed innovation and content. (There are already similar functions in other 3D applications that can use edge geometry as guides for creating spline/strand dynamic geometry.)

    The Hair Room is an unexploited, non-value-added, portion of the Poser platform. It is, in many respects, an orphaned component and continuing to ignore improvement and development represents a lost opportunity cost for the developer. In other words, it's money on the table, sitting there, doing nothing, yet continuing to occupy space and continuing to require development work to incorporate it into the next release.

    Unfortunately, there's not a great deal to "innovate" there, in my opinion, as it currently stands. BUT, an army of monkeys with a truckload of hammers could possibly help to improve the content available for the Hair Room and any innovation and rework that Smith Micro did in that area might gain a lot more attention for the next version of Poser as a result. As it is, without significant increase in the current level of attention and advertisement of new capabilities and changes that attract users, if SM actually did rework the Hair Room, I don't think many people would be inspired to purchase, simply because of the frustrations many have already had when working with it and the assumptions they would have as a result.

    ie: Innovations in proctology do not encourage patients to visit a proctologist.... :) One must first demonstrate and communication the benefits of doing so and explain how innovations have made the process much less... uncomfortable. :D



  • ie: Innovations in proctology do not encourage patients to visit a proctologist.... :) One must first demonstrate and communication the benefits of doing so and explain how innovations have made the process much less... uncomfortable. :D

    A nice analogy (no pun intended). You're right about the hair room. I've never used it, and I see very few products around that have used it.

    The more 'realistic' the skin and body get, the more obviously fake the hair becomes, so this will become an issue. I suspect that if Poser implements particles and instancing the hair room will eventually disappear. Maybe the hair system from Blender, seeing as SM are already collaborating with Superfly/Cycles.