# How to make Poser's Cloth Room work for you every time.

• @F_Verbaas I'm afraid the science part of your answer was beyond me (although I appreciate you trying! :-) Yes, the bullet physics might well be a good solution. I've found that a little frustrating to use as the parameters seem to interact so bizarrely, but perhaps I SHOULD give it a second try.

• Quick question for those of you who want to understand the cloth room better.
Where exactly are you getting confused and how? I want to make things simple for everyone, but that means making a lot of assumptions about what people know about Poser, and the Cloth Room. Since advanced and power users pretty much know what they're doing at this point, I'm assuming the people reading this tutorial will be mostly new Poser users and people who've only glanced in the Cloth Room's direction before.

• @eclark1849
To avoid making assumptions about pre-knowledge best separate fundamentals of soft body/cloth simulation and implementation of this technique in Poser.
There are a number of cloth simulators around: Marvelous Designer, Virtual World Dynamics, Blender, the DAZ system I forgot the name of, and I bet applications like Maya and 3DS have them also. A part of your audience may therefore be new to Poser but have their tracks in cloth simulation elsewhere. They just want to know the specifics of the implementation. Others will need to build some basic understanding of the process first.

This will 'catch' questions relating to the mesh walling apart because it is not properly welded.

The main confusion I see with people is when the cloth 'falls through' their collision object. They usually do not understand how collision is calculated; why, if you want to hang say a piece of cloth over a horizontal rod, it makes sense to have only the top of the rod act as collision object, and why the vertex distance of the cloth must be only a fraction of the diameter of the rod to ensure there is a cloth vertex colliding with the object polygon.
Problems with cloth hooking up on or falling through fingers, ears, toes and such have that same origin.

• @F_Verbaas That's needlessly complicating things and the very thing I want to avoid. They don't need to know how Blender, DAZ, or MD work. They need to know what to do to get Poser to work for them and work correctly.

• @eclark1849
It is your call. They all work on the same principle.

• @F_Verbaas I understand your point. I'm trying to keep this as uncomplicated as I can. They don't need to know how every other cloth simulator works, just what they need to do to get Poser to work. I'm reading some past threads from people about the Cloth Room right now, and one of the biggest complaints i see is that it's too technical to understand, and that the Reference Manual reads like a technical journal, which, to be honest, it does.
I was reading the manual's explanation for Shear Resistance, and honest to god, I think their explanation confused me even more.

• Did you know?

That Poser has changed the file format on dynamic hair and dynamic clothing? I rarely buy dynamic clothes because I can so easily make them myself, so when I save them to the library, it's usually as a prop. So as I'm reading the reference manual for the Poser 11 Cloth Room, I see this:

"Beginning with Poser 11 and Poser Pro 11, hair and cloth dynamic files are saved with an .abc extension (Alembic format)."

If this goes like in the past, this will be mostly ignored, particularly by the stores and vendors.

Stores and vendors can, in fact, safely ignore this change. The impact is on the dynamics file that's created when you run a simulation: it used to be .DYN, now it's .ABC. If you open a scene that was created in an earlier version in Poser 11, the simulation results won't be retained and you'll have to re-simulate.

• I'm doing a quick test right now on PhilC's Cloth Presets, and I'm having a bit of an issue. I've known about these presets for quite awhile, but I've never used them myself. Anyway, so far as how to use them, if you follow the instructions, they do what they're supposed to, and the numbers are entered in the fields they belong in. However, when I attempt drape the cloth over Andy, the draping dialog window appears, but it just sits there until i finally cancel it. On the other hand , if I change the numbers in the fields manually, the draping will begin almost immediately.

Just wondering if anyone else might have had an issue with Phil's Cloth Presets recently? Maybe it's a Poser 11 issue? Maybe my laptop is just crap?

• Quick question for those of you who want to understand the cloth room better.
Where exactly are you getting confused and how?

About how to pin object parts, about different types of body dynamics for making mixed material sims. About running multiple sims simultaneously. About they three or four types of collisions, and now, why according to verbaas, it would only make sense to define the top of a stick as a collision object.

Also, why, when I set self collision, the cloth still passes through itself when I collapse it to the floor.

• Quick question for those of you who want to understand the cloth room better.
Where exactly are you getting confused and how?

About how to pin object parts, about different types of body dynamics for making mixed material sims. About running multiple sims simultaneously. About they three or four types of collisions, and now, why according to verbaas, it would only make sense to define the top of a stick as a collision object.

Also, why, when I set self collision, the cloth still passes through itself when I collapse it to the floor.

a. You can't "pin" objects in the Cloth Room, but you can constrain them.
b. There are four dynamic cloth groups created when you start a sim. It's up to you to correctly identify them and place them into the correct group.
c. Yes, you can run several sims simultaneously, but doing so will tax your system and slow your computer down.
d. You need to ask Fverbaas why he said that.

• @eclark1849
@matb
Re a: Vertices of the 'choreographed' group move witht he transformations (scale, translation, rotation) of the cloth object. This effect is I think what @matb refer to as 'pinned'.
Re b: Only dynamic groups play a role in the simulaion. There can be multiple dynamic groups, for example for representing areas in the clothing that have different mechanical properties. I usually make a separate group for (shoulder) straps in which I set the tension resistance to a high level so they will not strain too much. Also you can in curtains for example improve the hanging by making the lower hem a separate group with high mass, similar to a lead-bead string sewn in real curtains.
The dynamic groups are the only ones having parameter settings. The other groups have no parameter settings and so there needs to be only one group.
Re c: AFAIK the sims can be run only one after the other. Usually one runs the sims from the collision object outwards, so first the shirt, then the coat.
Re. d: This has to do with how collision detection algorithms work. In short: collision objects need to be defined with the normals facing outwards. A cloth vertex found on the 'wrong' side of an object facet can then in the next sim step be sent back to where it belongs.
If the collsion object is double faced, or like in a rod there is a surface facing the opposite way nearby, the cloth vertex will get 'instructions' from both object facets, sending the cloth vertex in opposite directions. if the 'wrong' instruction is more pressing, the cloth vertex is sent in the wrong direction.

• @eclark1849 Thank you Earl (sorry - realised I was incorrectly calling you Errol before).

• @F_Verbaas Oh this is some great information thanks Verbaas. Gonna take me a while to digest and practice though!

And why did you say that draping cloth over a pole it's better to only define the TOP of the pole as a collision object?

• @matb
This was something I learned with the cloth room a long time ago and applied since then. I definitely found same valid in Marvelous Designer.

To be honest I did some tests tonight with latest Poser plus latest SR dropping cloth on a horizontal bar and I get mixed results. Maybe improvements were made over time or just my test setup was not good. Willl have to investigate.

Nevertheless it is good to reduce the number of facets used for collision because it speeds up your simulation. Not having facets in the collision surface that may push your cloth in the wrong direction is one potential source of trouble less.

• Okay, so I was testing PhilC's Cloth Presets in Poser 11 earlier and I had a problem with them. They loaded just fine, but then either nothing happened, or it was delayed for ever. And the Mesh just started exploding when it did move. So I tried the presets in Poser 2014 and it worked just fine, which indicates that because the Presets use Python scripting, apparently they are broken in Poser 11. You can still add the preset numbers manually though. They work just fine that way.

• @eclark1849 Yes, I've been disheartened by a number of Python updates that were implemented in Poser. I would question whether it's essential for SM to keep up to date the latest version of Python at the expense of losing backwards compatibility each time. I was disappointed when some of my layer scripts stopped working.

• On the Python note. Python 2.7 is an oddity. It's a hybrid, read on

Python 2.0, was a great idea when it started, many of us tinkered around with it and many scripts were written for lots of programs. pun intended...
Then 2.7 came out.
2.7 is far more than a 2.6 based update.
It incorporates some commands from Python 3 as well.
Basically just the ones it was capable of doing after a lot of changes were made for the core of 2.7.
Python math libraries are now capable of better floating point precision, WX, etc.
Everything in Poser comes down to the numbers one way or the other.
It has lots of other changes, including in security.

Then they announced end of life on Python 2.0 base support.
opps....
Lots of programs changed to 2.7, for this very reason.
Incorporating an api into a program is a double edged sword.
The devs put it in Poser to add functionality to a program.
Others, use it for something else entirely different.

If some odd security hole was exposed in 2.0 and not patched...
Do you really want that on your system?
I know I don't.
And the added functionality isn't a bad thing by any means either.

Lots of scripts had to be re written, basically for any program that used it, if they valued security.

At least, that is one way of looking at it... There are other ways as well...

• @shvrdavid Thanks shvr - an interesting insight. Personally, yes, I'd quite happily suffer an obscure security hole in a part of the program that never communicates online anyway if it meant all my old stuff kept working. especially as updated versions never came out. But I certainly see this in a deeper context now. Thanks for the info.
Are many people actually using python on poser to create their own scripts?

• @matb Hey Matb something you might want to think about next time you do a pile of discarded clothes on the floor is to make sure you up the numbers on fold resistance and make sure the checkbox for self collision is checked. If you're doing a pile of clothes, make sure they are all set to collide with each other.

• @eclark1849 Ooh that's a terrific piece of advice Earl. Thank you so much!