How to make Poser's Cloth Room work for you every time.

  • @matb said in How to make Poser's Cloth Room work for you every time.:

    @eclark1849 said in How to make Poser's Cloth Room work for you every time.:

    Quick question for those of you who want to understand the cloth room better.
    Where exactly are you getting confused and how?

    About how to pin object parts, about different types of body dynamics for making mixed material sims. About running multiple sims simultaneously. About they three or four types of collisions, and now, why according to verbaas, it would only make sense to define the top of a stick as a collision object.

    Also, why, when I set self collision, the cloth still passes through itself when I collapse it to the floor.

    a. You can't "pin" objects in the Cloth Room, but you can constrain them.
    b. There are four dynamic cloth groups created when you start a sim. It's up to you to correctly identify them and place them into the correct group.
    c. Yes, you can run several sims simultaneously, but doing so will tax your system and slow your computer down.
    d. You need to ask Fverbaas why he said that.

  • @eclark1849
    Re a: Vertices of the 'choreographed' group move witht he transformations (scale, translation, rotation) of the cloth object. This effect is I think what @matb refer to as 'pinned'.
    Re b: Only dynamic groups play a role in the simulaion. There can be multiple dynamic groups, for example for representing areas in the clothing that have different mechanical properties. I usually make a separate group for (shoulder) straps in which I set the tension resistance to a high level so they will not strain too much. Also you can in curtains for example improve the hanging by making the lower hem a separate group with high mass, similar to a lead-bead string sewn in real curtains.
    The dynamic groups are the only ones having parameter settings. The other groups have no parameter settings and so there needs to be only one group.
    Re c: AFAIK the sims can be run only one after the other. Usually one runs the sims from the collision object outwards, so first the shirt, then the coat.
    Re. d: This has to do with how collision detection algorithms work. In short: collision objects need to be defined with the normals facing outwards. A cloth vertex found on the 'wrong' side of an object facet can then in the next sim step be sent back to where it belongs.
    If the collsion object is double faced, or like in a rod there is a surface facing the opposite way nearby, the cloth vertex will get 'instructions' from both object facets, sending the cloth vertex in opposite directions. if the 'wrong' instruction is more pressing, the cloth vertex is sent in the wrong direction.

  • @eclark1849 Thank you Earl (sorry - realised I was incorrectly calling you Errol before).

  • @F_Verbaas Oh this is some great information thanks Verbaas. Gonna take me a while to digest and practice though!

    And why did you say that draping cloth over a pole it's better to only define the TOP of the pole as a collision object?

  • @matb
    This was something I learned with the cloth room a long time ago and applied since then. I definitely found same valid in Marvelous Designer.

    To be honest I did some tests tonight with latest Poser plus latest SR dropping cloth on a horizontal bar and I get mixed results. Maybe improvements were made over time or just my test setup was not good. Willl have to investigate.

    Nevertheless it is good to reduce the number of facets used for collision because it speeds up your simulation. Not having facets in the collision surface that may push your cloth in the wrong direction is one potential source of trouble less.

  • Okay, so I was testing PhilC's Cloth Presets in Poser 11 earlier and I had a problem with them. They loaded just fine, but then either nothing happened, or it was delayed for ever. And the Mesh just started exploding when it did move. So I tried the presets in Poser 2014 and it worked just fine, which indicates that because the Presets use Python scripting, apparently they are broken in Poser 11. You can still add the preset numbers manually though. They work just fine that way.

  • @eclark1849 Yes, I've been disheartened by a number of Python updates that were implemented in Poser. I would question whether it's essential for SM to keep up to date the latest version of Python at the expense of losing backwards compatibility each time. I was disappointed when some of my layer scripts stopped working.

  • On the Python note. Python 2.7 is an oddity. It's a hybrid, read on

    Python 2.0, was a great idea when it started, many of us tinkered around with it and many scripts were written for lots of programs. pun intended...
    Then 2.7 came out.
    2.7 is far more than a 2.6 based update.
    It incorporates some commands from Python 3 as well.
    Basically just the ones it was capable of doing after a lot of changes were made for the core of 2.7.
    Python math libraries are now capable of better floating point precision, WX, etc.
    Everything in Poser comes down to the numbers one way or the other.
    It has lots of other changes, including in security.

    Then they announced end of life on Python 2.0 base support.
    Lots of programs changed to 2.7, for this very reason.
    Incorporating an api into a program is a double edged sword.
    The devs put it in Poser to add functionality to a program.
    Others, use it for something else entirely different.

    If some odd security hole was exposed in 2.0 and not patched...
    Do you really want that on your system?
    I know I don't.
    And the added functionality isn't a bad thing by any means either.

    Lots of scripts had to be re written, basically for any program that used it, if they valued security.

    At least, that is one way of looking at it... There are other ways as well...

  • @shvrdavid Thanks shvr - an interesting insight. Personally, yes, I'd quite happily suffer an obscure security hole in a part of the program that never communicates online anyway if it meant all my old stuff kept working. especially as updated versions never came out. But I certainly see this in a deeper context now. Thanks for the info.
    Are many people actually using python on poser to create their own scripts?

  • @matb Hey Matb something you might want to think about next time you do a pile of discarded clothes on the floor is to make sure you up the numbers on fold resistance and make sure the checkbox for self collision is checked. If you're doing a pile of clothes, make sure they are all set to collide with each other.

  • @eclark1849 Ooh that's a terrific piece of advice Earl. Thank you so much!

  • Okay, so I've been a bit distracted for the last few days. My day job, mainly, and... well, not getting enough sleep to do it properly. Anyway, so now that I've determined that the cloth presets are not working properly in Poser 11, who do I report that problem to. PhilC and hope that he will rewrite the Python script to get it working again, or Smith Micro and hope that they will fix whatever broke the script in the first place?

    I'm starting to feel another WISHLIST thread coming on for Poser 12. We need some improvements in the Cloth Room, and one of them would be a way to not only import cloth presets , but a way to save any custom presets you come up with in the Cloth room and to store them, preferably in the Cloth itself. As a Content Creator, if I go through all the trouble of finding the right and proper settings so that the cloth is acting exactly as I want it to, I should have someway to store that info and pass it on to the customer.

  • Another tip for everyone. One I had suspected for a while, to be honest. When setting collision offset in the Cloth room, make sure to increase this value a bit more than what you actually want. Because Poser's calculations take a little time to actually do, the cloth object may already be past the offset point by the time it's finished. Increasing the offset distance that Poser needs to detect the cloth object may keep the cloth object from poking through.

  • @eclark1849 When you say that they take a little time to do, do you mean in terms of tthe animation, or in real time? Are you suggesting that the sim actually drags a little behind the motiyn of the collision object? If so, this would surely have dire implications for fast or large moving objects. Is this a Poser 11 thing or all versions?

  • @matb According to the manual, it refers to the animation. By the way, the manual also suggests increasing slightly the collision depth. to avoid "accidental collisions." But remember, we're talking about distances of .1 to 10 centimeters.

  • @eclark1849
    It does set the distance at which a vertex is expected to be touching the collision surface of the figure, so where the collision mechanisms begin to kick in. In fact you make the simulation think the figure is larger. The clothing will eventually be at some distance from the figure skin.
    If your simulation involves vertices move at high speed towards the figure you may need higher settings than the default 1.0 but with the version we have now I have not had situations where I needed to do that. The default 1.0 is fine for outer clothing, say a coat under which one expect a shirt or sweater. For visibly 'close to the skin', say a T-shirt, I found value 0.2 a good starting point balancing between poke-thru of the final result and shirt floating in the air above the figure.
    Another solution can be to increase the number of steps per frame. Smaller time step gives less distace for the vertices to travel in a time step so less chance the vertex shoots through the skin.

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    Splendid thread.

  • @lululee Glad you like it. I get sidetracked from time to time so it may take longer to finish this than I first intended. My hard drive is littered with a minefield of unfinished projects, most of which just require UV mapping, texturing and packaging to be finished. Assuming I ever get around to it. Did I mention I get sidetracked from time to--- ooh, shiny.

  • A couple of years back I came across a really simple way to create necklaces for the cloth room and I wrote it down here - . Just started playing with the idea again today.
    Currently trying to work out how to get dangly bits (pendants and such) to work, but they seem to end up sticking out at odd gravitationally unlikely angles.

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    @3dcheapskate said in How to make Poser's Cloth Room work for you every time.:

    A couple of years back I came across a really simple way to create necklaces for the cloth room and I wrote it down here - . Just started playing with the idea again today.
    Currently trying to work out how to get dangly bits (pendants and such) to work, but they seem to end up sticking out at odd gravitationally unlikely angles.

    That really looks wonderful!
    I think for pendants I personally would go with a separate prop, with a well chosen pivotpoint.