Why do the developers sometimes ignore the users?

  • @Jan19 I agree with you Jan. PhilC already has a preset on his site somewhere. it should be a simple thing for the developers to add there own to the features.

    The hair room is another place that could stand some love. For one thing the hair needs more verts created to make styling it a lot easier.

  • Not ignored, the Hierarchy Editor is on my wish list too. Just because I'm the product manager doesn't mean I always get my way either. It's a matter of priorities. There are dozens of little things like that. Minor changes that we really want to do. There just isn't enough time in the day. At some point we have to say OK, no more we have to ship this version. I can't tell you how painful it is to decide that a feature you wanted ends up cut because more important fixes and features had to take priority.

    Filing them as "Enhancement" bugs is important. I know it may see mile they don't get looked at but they really do. We have to focus on priorities. Anything that can prevent using a feature or cause data loss always take first priority. When we get past those less severe issues get a chance to be fixed.

  • @nerd3d I figured it'd be priorities. But I have another request then. Is there someway you can post a template or PDF file of a properly filled out bug report or enhancement report? I keep hearing people say that but It'd be a whole lot easier to do if we users knew what you wanted and need to find in these reports. Also, where do we file them?

  • @eclark1849 I agree that the best option is to let us all choose which we prefer. :)

  • @eclark1849

    You can report issues here https://support.smithmicro.com/

    As far as what to include here is a general list of what to include.

    • Operating system
    • CPU Type (Intel AMD)
    • Build number of Poser
    • A detailed description, and preferably and scene export that reproduces it.
    • If your computer fu is good, a crash dump (obviously only if it makes it crash).
    • And if it is random, you need to mention that, and if you can get it to do it again describing what you did.
    • Installed addons (Reality, Octane, etc)
    • Scripts you run at startup, if set up for that
    • Anything else you can think of that might relate to it. I know that sounds odd, but you never know.

    I can't think of anything else to add to this, if so I can add it later.
    Might be a good idea to start a thread about it with a related tag as well, I will look into that as well.

    And by all means, start a thread here about it. I have run into more than a few issues that were on my end...

  • @Jan19 If you are talking about preset materials in the sense of stretch and fold parameters and the like, that cannot be done as it is dependent on the mesh (size of poly, tri or quad).

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    • Queue log, if using Queue Manager to run batch lists of renders or rendering animations.
      If I remember correctly, it will be in C:\Users\admin\AppData\Local\Temp\Queue Manager\11 in 64bit Win7.

    • WER temps - Windows Error Reporting; If I remember correctly, they'll be in C:\Users\admin\AppData\Local\Temp in 64bit Win7, and will be named WER*****.tmp. They'll be time/date stamped so that you can identify which one(s) are relevant.

  • @nerd3d I think that this complaint would be less frequent if the users were asked what they actually want.

    The impression I have is that some particular partier or particular groups have a lot of influence, while most of the customers have very little influence. It ends up being a very random hit and miss (at least for me). As a customer for 15 years, it pains me that never ever I was officially asked what I'd like to see in next version, even if I started some 40 threads and polls in several places asking for suggestions and voting mysefl.

    I cite as example the new morph tool. Brilliantly done, and very useful. A hit. Also poly reducer, very useful.

    Then I cite the continuous changes with the library. I have no idea why people are so obsessed with library. It keeps changing every version. Who uses library all the day? Library must be 1% utilization time, yet it seems to receive 50% of the effort in the product. Big miss. Meanwhile my 99% utilization items are just neglected and left stale - yeah, I'm talking animation, clothes and hair.

  • The library is more than 1%. The rubbish library is the primary reason I never bothered with Studio. If you can't find your resources, you can't make the scene.
    That said, I want metadata search capacity. Give me my tabs back (as a minimum)!

  • @piersyf Fair enough.

    Perhaps I should rephrase my statement: I don't use 300 different characters and 3,000 different props. I have some 3 base characters, and some 10 customizations of those characters, and I just keep all of them in pzz files. When I need to add a toon, I just duplicate one from the current document, or I import from the pzz.

    As for the props I have perhaps 100 different props that I use all the time, and I just keep them in a few pzz - for example one of my pzz is called Lib_V3_Dresses, and it has some 30 dresses in it, organized in a grid, and that also has my customized V3 models. When I need to find a prop I open that pzz, find the dress I want, set it the way I want with the models already in place, then I just transfer the result to the document I'm working with.

    The advantage is that when I customize a new V3 model I just import it to Lib_V3_Dresses, then I can see several dresses nearby my custom model, then I can try several dresses directly in there to find the one(s) fit better, fit them in there as new dresses, and then just transfer the fitted dress to my main document.

    So I use very little of the library (perhaps to keep light presets and to transfer objects, and other times just to fool around). I like that flow better because I see all my dresses nearby all my models, I can immediately see their dimensions compared to my models, I can see which ones are groups and which ones are figures and which ones are simple props, then I set up and fit them without clogging my main document.

    I've found that faster than eternally adding/trying/deleting ("You sure you want to delete? Yeah, whatever") a bunch of stuff in my main document.

    Anyway, my point with the 1% was that I spend perhaps 1 hour adding toons and props to my main document, then I spend some 100 hours or more in the actual animation. I don't see myself spending 99 hours adding resources and then 1 hour in animation. Other people's spreads may of course differ.

  • I have sent in a LOT of official feature requests and most of them are still unsolved.
    My guess is that some things look like simple changes to us users but are actually difficult to get done in programming. At least that's the only explanation I can come up with.

  • I must say that Poser developers over the versions have been responsive to my suggestions on the wishlists and I found features implemented I had suggested.
    But, of course the saying is that had Henry Ford done what most people wanted in his time he had set off breeding stronger horses.

  • @esha said in Why do the developers sometimes ignore the users?:

    My guess is that some things look like simple changes to us users but are actually difficult to get done in programming.

    Sometimes that, and they're also coming in at a higher rate that they can be implemented. That said, every update usually includes several of them, so they are being taken into account.

    What are your top three that are still pending?

  • Well, when development for P11 started we were asked for input. We vendors put together a feature wishlist and I fed each issue separately into Mantis. I also added several requests by users (non-vendors). Of these 30+ feature requests so far only 1 has been fulfilled.
    If you ask me what is on top of the list for me personally, it's everything that has to do with rigging, weight painting, morphing.
    Without a proper reverse deformation feature it's not possible to create high-quality content (and no, GoZ doesn't always solve the problem). Also the weight painting tools are still awkward to use.
    The only thing that has improved is ERC setup, that is better than in previous versions. All the rest is still pending.

  • Well, i don't find the weight painting tools difficult to use at all. Yes, they take some getting use to, but since I use them practically every day, I can say I find them very easy to use.

    One of the things I DON'T want to see in Poser is the "do it all FOR you" mentality I see in other riggers. At that point, rigging itself becomes knowing what buttons to push, NOT a specialized skill set.

  • Ok, I see I probably haven't phrased that well.
    I didn't mean to say that Poser's rigging tools are difficult, I said they were awkward. By that I mean impractical and time-consuming. For rigging there will never be a "do it all for you" solution, I think. But a lot of things could be more streamlined, for example not having to switch tools for reversing the effect but just holding down a modifier key, like in ZBrush. Or being able to temporarily hide parts of the geometry when you're working with a layered mesh without having to resort to tricks to do that. Or a feature for smoothing an entire selection of polys in one go, without having to go over everything with the smoothing brush. Or editing the dials for multiple body parts all in one go (have you ever needed to rename all the rotations and set limits for them on 30+ body parts?). And so on.

    Poser's rigging tools are ok as long as you don't compare them to other software. And I have been told that my favourite software for rigging sucks when you compare it to Maya's rigging features (and I totally believe that).
    I can rig in Poser, I just don't enjoy the process. I prefer another software that allows me to get a better result more quickly, and if that software should see further improvements in some future version I'll be happy about it.

    I don't think keeping things convoluted and impractical so we can be proud of having a specialized skill set is going to do the software a favor. That's one of the reasons why people who create content for a living are moving elsewhere.

    But I don't want to argue. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and anyway, that decision isn't ours but the development team's. Besides, we're derailing the thread. ;)
    I just mentioned these feature requests as an example for things that are important to me and that haven't been addressed yet, although some of them have been sitting in Mantis for about a year now, some even longer.

  • @esha The point is not to "argue" but to say that what is important to one person is not necessarily true for others.

    Frankly, I don't find Poser's rigging tools convoluted, nor difficult to use. Is it difficult to learn? Yes, it is. But so is rigging in anything that isn't so automated as to lose any skill involved.

    I hope to see this forum become more about sharing HOW to use Poser rigging tools than one complaining about Poser rigging tools.

  • @esha

    I just mentioned these feature requests as an example for things that are important to me and that haven't been addressed yet, although some of them have been sitting in Mantis for about a year now, some even longer.

    Important to others too, not just you. There was no derailment on your part, you gave only what you were asked for.

    (The library works really well for me, but I have no reasonable counter opinion for all the good people who would like it to work better for them).

  • Obviously, both Glitterati and Esha are waaaay better riggers than I, so yeah, if you can get Poser to do it all for me, shoot for the moon, baby!:smiley:

  • I think this thread answers the question perfectly. You were probably after one fix or change in particular. Some agreed, others felt something else should take priority. Then others had a different ideas or complaint again. So many different voices, so many different uses for Poser and so many different ways we use Poser. Smith Micro do what they can with what they have and hope to hit some kind of middle ground making as many of us as happy as they can. You're not being ignored, just one of many of us all hoping what we really want or need will be in the next Poser update.