Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?



  • This post is deleted!

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Luckily there are still plenty Poser Only content creators around!

    I requested a search Poser Only - button and a What's New for Poser - button on Renderosity many times.

    We don't want to check all Poser versions in search, we want one Button, show me Poser content...same goes for What's new Poser Only.

    I'm not going to go look through What's New to find Poser Content manually,
    it's such a waste of time. :'(



  • I think there are plenty who want your money :bride_with_veil:

    There are excellent vendors on Content Paradise already, but your tastes may be for certain types of characters that aren't represented on CP. I for one am looking forward to new characters based on Paul and Pauline, plus I have some additional characters coming for my free Toon People characters.

    I can say, as a long time vendor on Content Paradise, that CP has the best terms and conditions around. The position of Smith Micro as a provider of software rather than as a brokerage, is best for both vendors and artists who use third party content - bar none. I do sell some other places but CP is the only reseller venue other than our sister company that gets our catalog of content because they treat their vendors like vendors and not as suppliers.

    I am very happy that the forums have come home. Outsourcing them to another brokerage was a huge mistake. Now CP vendors have a direct way to work with customers, learn what they really want, and deliver new content on CP. That's a good thing.

    There are things Id like to see improved at CP too. For example, a return of "related products'. When I put out models, they usually exist in sets, such as "Elven Village Volume 1" or "Steampunk City 1" or "Toon Santa's Christmas Village 2015". Related products allows customers to see the rest of the vision of the set of models.



  • @xen said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    Granted, it did turn into a well of negativity. In my view it does take effort to 1) police a forum and to 2) address the sources of the negativity.

    Well, I think we all agree it's more efficient to combat the causes of discontent than to try to sweep any visible signs under the forum carpet. People have strong feelings about their hobby, and if they feel they've been let down they tend to go ballistic. Compulsively deleting threads won't fix that, it will only install a lasting climate of hostility, as some sites have discovered.
    On the other hand when people feel they are supported and understood, they are happy...
    Rather surprising, isn't it?... :-)

    They have the best vendors

    Unfortunately the best vendors are attracted to Daz3D, where they eventually switch to D|S.
    Not all of them switch to D|S of course, but more and more do, there is a clear trend. Some PAs I know who were making plain Poser content for years have lately switched to D|S-only. :-(

    I don't see any obvious solution for this, but I do agree Poser content stores need to get their act together. Poser lives through its content. As for SM, they might not care about content, but without enough content Poser will become a niche product only used by a handful of people.
    But I'm preaching in the desert... AFAIK there were long and impassioned discussions about all this at RDNA, with the results we all know. :-/

    For my part I spend more on contents than on the core software and I am probably typical.

    Me too. By a large margin. Back when there still was stuff to buy, I used to spend a Poser Pro license's worth each month on content... And I've been doing this for 10 years now...

    An easier install system would also be good.

    Zip files are perfect, but CP needs to enforce some quality control. A lot of products I've bought there ignore blatantly the rules of good product packaging: Hard-coded paths, embedded geometries (or misplaced OBJ files), generic texture names, and so on.
    Meaning that you need to spend half an hour editing/renaming the files and fixing paths... If you are proficient enough, else the product looks broken (and for all practical purposes, it is).



  • one of the things that has always had me wondering, why not much support for the Poser included characters?
    Sure, DAZ has their Victoria and Michael lines, but here you have built in characters and they just go without much .. in the way of clothing or characters, textures, etc. To me, it has to be a lack of marketing by whoever controls Poser..... something akin to that.

    DAZ has now created a monster with their Genesis line. How can anyone keep up? So now, I have pretty much stopped at V4 and M4 .... but I see even Rendo is moving to Genesis.

    anyway ... we have what we need pretty much built right into Poser. Why not develop it? why not support those that develop it? Give them your cash. Allow Poser to maintain its place in the sun, using what comes with it.


  • Poser Team

    @daveso

    I think that a lot of why you don't see a lot of content for the SM figures comes down to advertising.
    Sometimes people say that it is the quality of the figures and I would say that is the second reason why.

    After advertising and quality, I would guess that the next reason is that they are rarely updated in fear of breaking content.
    Which oddly, there is not that much content to break in the first place.

    The next hurdle is the base shape of the figure. If you ask ten people what they think a base figure should be, you will probably get more than ten versions of a base figure. I have seen that happen many times with various figures.

    To me the base is just something to work off of. In many cases I completely re rig the figure, and then I have to do the same to any content I want to use on it afterwards. Doing this is not something I would think the average user wants to do, and you all but have to have the Pro version to do so. There is a reason I re rig them, and that is so they will bend as good as the mesh design allows with as few JCM's as possible.

    Smith Micro has done something that is new to the Poser world, and that is make base figures a merchant resource. At first you might not think that is a huge change, but it is. It is also a double edged sword in some respects as well. You don't want a hundreds of different versions of the same figure floating around. We saw a mini version of that with the Weight Mapped V4's, and there are more than a few versions of that floating around.

    As far as Genesis goes, I look at that a bit differently. Genesis is a bit more than just a figure line, it is tied heavily into the program itself as well. And you have to admit that they advertise that like no other 3D company does. Yes I have Studio, and V7, etc. But I don't buy a lot of stuff for it simply because I prefer Poser. Studio took that path to promote content, and they have done a really good job at that.

    What does need developed in the Poser world, is not necessarily just the the program itself, but the Figures that can be used within it. If it were up to me, Pauline and Paul would get a major upgrade for the next version of Poser versus just making a new base. They did that with Miki, and she made it to version 4. Why not do the same with Pauline and Paul as well? Having hundreds of figures to use is great, but the more you have the harder it is to stick to one for content creation. Which is right where Poser is right now. There are so many figures to develop for, that spreading the development between them neglects all of them.

    Part of the reason, (to me anyway), that Victoria has had such a following is the name has remained the same, and they advertise the tar out of her. Most of us probably have Victoria 1 thru 7. Some just up to Victoria 4. But all of us know who she is and the impact she made.

    If a Poser figure line were to emerge, it could do the same thing. Yes it will need advertised, content creators, consumers, etc. All of us know that. V7 doesn't look anything like V1, yet it sells... We don't need a completely different figure line, that wont get much content made for it at all. That will only add to the list of figures that get very little support.

    Tie the figures into the program, well, we already know how well that works....

    No I don't work for Poser, but I wish I did have a say in the figure development part of the figures.



  • Regarding figures, for the most part Poser figures are an afterthought with Poser. They exist merely to show off what new features the latest version of Poser has. Nothing wrong with that, but who's going to pay hundreds of dollars to upgrade to the latest software version just to get the new figure? Even DAZ saw the error in that thinking which is why Studio is free.



  • You already can do amazing things with Pauline and Paul using the face room and a few commercial morphs and skins. It doesn't cost much to do creative things with them, thanks to the fitting room that makes thousands of clothes usable. Here are a few examples that I created just to make that point (if the linking system works better than in the preview window.!

    Pauline can look fab: alt text

    This is Paul and Pauline: alt text

    All three are Pauline: alt text

    Pauline can rock with the best competitors (center, Persia morph and Tempesta3D's Elly texture) with Dawn SE (Elisa character) and V6 (Adrianna character): alt text

    But there is no doubt that SM could do a far better job promoting the figures.





  • looking good. I especially like the last one. What textures are you using for skin?

    @RobZhena said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    You already can do amazing things with Pauline and Paul using the face room and a few commercial morphs and skins. It doesn't cost much to do creative things with them, thanks to the fitting room that makes thousands of clothes usable. Here are a few examples that I created just to make that point (if the linking system works better than in the preview window.!

    Pauline can look fab: alt text

    This is Paul and Pauline: alt text

    All three are Pauline: alt text

    Pauline can rock with the best competitors (center, Persia morph and Tempesta3D's Elly texture) with Dawn SE (Elisa character) and V6 (Adrianna character): alt text

    But there is no doubt that SM could do a far better job promoting the figures.



  • In the last one, Pauline has Tempesta3D's Elly texture. She is such a great artist! I hope she does more for Pauline.



  • @shvrdavid said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    I think that a lot of why you don't see a lot of content for the SM figures comes down to advertising.
    Sometimes people say that it is the quality of the figures and I would say that is the second reason why.

    The "problem" with Poser supplied figures versus Daz ones is almost as old as Poser. I remember when Zygote released Victoria, first of her name. She was expensive, everyone already had a working female figure already supplied by Poser, yet Vicky instantly became a hit. Why? Because she was "better" than Posette...
    Now this horse has already been beaten to a pulp, but the cold hard facts are Daz figures get more use, which means more add-on content, which means more use, which means more add-on content (and so forth). Notwithstanding what people with the right skills might manage to morph & rig out of the base Poser figures, out of the box they have been always inferior. Says the market, not me. I'm just the messenger.

    To me the base is just something to work off of. [...] Doing this is not something I would think the average user wants to do

    Indeed. Not everybody buys a car to make a hot rod out of it... :laughing:
    Not to mention most people don't have the skills: We're leaving the Poser domain and entering the "Modeler" (Lightwave/3DMax/Whatever) one here. Most people use Poser just to make pictures, not to hack code, so all the arguments about it being possible to make a perfect pro-grade figure out of the primitive cube prop inside Poser are IMHO kind of besides the point... :rolling_eyes:

    Smith Micro has done something that is new to the Poser world, and that is make base figures a merchant resource.

    I'm not sure the Poser world was really yearning for a merchant resource figure...

    What the market was yearning for was something to replace the Daz figures Poser users had come to rely upon since last century... Something to stop Poser users sitting there salivating at the Daz store windows... :rolling_eyes:

    It is also a double edged sword in some respects as well. You don't want a hundreds of different versions of the same figure floating around. We saw a mini version of that with the Weight Mapped V4's, and there are more than a few versions of that floating around.

    Indeed, and that's the problem. A slew of versions means even less support, because commercial content creators can't afford to work for extreme niche figures. I'm happy we're at least two to see that this way.

    Studio took that path to promote content, and they have done a really good job at that.

    ...Which in turn profits Studio. People don't buy into a brand, they buy a potential.

    Daz: "Get Studio for free, and you'll be able to use all this shiny lovely content you can buy here"
    Poser: "Buy Poser, and after having learned how to model, rig and UVmap, you'll be able to use our "merchant resource" to build yourself a figure to use"...

    What does need developed in the Poser world, is not necessarily just the the program itself, but the Figures that can be used within it. If it were up to me, Pauline and Paul would get a major upgrade for the next version of Poser versus just making a new base.

    Agree. Except that giving the Paul family a quick once-over won't do. Poser figures need to leap into the 21 century at last.

    Nobody ever wondered why there is so much content for Daz figures, despite their one-day fly lifespans? I see two obvious factors: The tools, and the content optimization.
    The tools are easy to explain: Daz's content creation tools are much much better than Poser's, period. When you spend a big part of your day in them, I guess that counts.
    Also, Daz invented with the Gen4 Millenium figures a system optimizing content creation: Instead of having the usual slew of different and incompatible figures (Poser-like), they made one female and one male base figure, and added morph packs to turn those into whatever you want: Slim, fat, hero, ethnic, creature.
    Then they pushed this even further by having one single, sex-less base figure; This apparently didn't work out all too well, because the next iteration had female and male base figures again.

    This idea is pure genius: It means that if you make a shirt for the base female, all the versions (Victoria, Aiko, Stephanie and whatever they are called now) can use it. No more making a dozen different versions and re-rigging them from scratch.
    For a content creator this means that the piece of clothing he makes now will always work on that character, including on spin-off shapes which are yet to appear.
    Much better than relying on users using the fitting room to tweak, fit and rig stuff themselves.

    Having hundreds of figures to use is great, but the more you have the harder it is to stick to one for content creation. Which is right where Poser is right now. There are so many figures to develop for, that spreading the development between them neglects all of them.

    My point exactly. :thumbsup:

    V7 doesn't look anything like V1, yet it sells...

    Much like the 2016 Fords don't look any like the Model T... "Victoria" is a brand now. At 17, she's almost adult now. Most of us have used her since the beginning.

    This been said, saying the success of Daz's figures is due to marketing is counterproductive, for it leaves the illusion that if they repeat often enough that Pauline is better than Genesis, everyone will eventually come to believe it.

    No I don't work for Poser, but I wish I did have a say in the figure development part of the figures.

    Join the club, we have t-shirts... :rolling_eyes: :laughing:


  • Poser Team

    Where is my Tshirt? lol....



  • Yeah, you have to get Scott his t-shirt. If anyone deserves one, he does. :smile:


  • Poser Team

    @Miss-B

    Yeah, you have to get Scott his t-shirt. If anyone deserves one, he does. :smile:

    :astonished:



  • @Miss-B
    I'll need his rigging for transfert. This is Poser... :rolling_eyes:


  • Poser Team

    I use large rigging with standard joint rotation orders. :laughing:



  • @rg5a said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    This been said, saying the success of Daz's figures is due to marketing is counterproductive, for it leaves the illusion that if they repeat often enough that Pauline is better than Genesis, everyone will eventually come to believe it.

    It's not just in the amount of marketing they do, it's in the quality in their advertised images that DAZ shows off that makes their products look so good. I've never used DAZ Studio, never bothered with V4 even though I have the free base, but I've got to admit that the quality of any official DAZ products promo images are leaps and bounds above any SM rendered promo shots I've seen. This doubles for marketplace images, I've probably passed on thousands of Poser products simply because the promo images are horrendous, but it's not at all like that at the DAZ marketplace. Everything there really looks well rendered and makes the products shine.

    It seems like DAZ has some very stringent guidelines for promo images, SM/CP should really take that and put that towards future content in the Poser marketplace so people don't just pass on everything because a vendor doesn't know how to properly use lighting.



  • shvrdavid, rg5a and johndoe641, thanks for your insights! I agree with your comments wholeheartedly.

    Unfortunately for Poser and the Poser community, Smith Micro has never cared much about content (no matter what they claim). They don't develop much content in-house, so they don't see the need to implement better content creation tools. I don't think they have a team of several people who work exclusively on content creation, or a team of render artists for showing off their products. They still keep Contentparadise open, but they don't maintain it very well. When I uploaded my last product to CP (a while ago, I admit) there was no quality control whatsoever. What comes across to me as a user is "This is what we have. Make do with it." This is not very attractive to me as a customer.

    I really think it's time that all these things are improved. I still have hopes.



  • I'm definitely in the "just want to make pictures" band. I use Poser so I can take advantage to the artistic abilities of the many talented vendors to replace my own lack of the same.
    While the experience of shopping at the various brokerages can vary from brilliant (Hivewire) to aargh, how many times to have I have to click to tell this **** site I don't want to buy extended download service, I sure I don't have to name the site, it is all irrelevant if the content isn't being produced for me to buy.
    In the case of Pauline for example while there have been a reasonable number of character and texture sets, morphs etc. there has been very little in the way of clothing. Now some of you will say why not convert clothing. I don't want to spend my limited hobby time doing that, I rather buy products from vendors, who could produce original products.
    Vendors or course want to spend there time producing products that sell well, I fully understand this, but it has produced the cycle of all the content is produced for v4, therefore other figures don't get used, so anything made for them sells poorly.
    The last native figures that seem to have been supported by SM (or whoever owned Poser at that time) were the g2. If Paul and Pauline got the same level of support from SM could that be the way for them to become to go to Poser figures, and start drawing in other content creators?


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