Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?



  • @AmbientShade said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    I should clarify though, that it is possible to rig a figure in poser so that its clothing functions (mostly) this way, but there are currently no figures that take advantage of it, and the results are still limiting.

    That's good to know...as someone coming from DS to create Diva in Poser that was something I found very frustrating getting the clothing to fit. I'm hoping to update to Poser Pro 11 when I can afford it as I've heard the tools make creating injections and other things easier to do. Traci's method has certainly helped a lot of Poser users to get clothing onto Diva though...for which I'm very grateful!



  • @Glitterati3D said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @AmbientShade I really think you are misunderstanding something. Let's take Genesis 3 as an example.

    I buy a dress for Genesis 3. Then I buy a morph that is a heavy set morph for Genesis 3. If that is a custom morph, then the original clothing does not fit the morphed figure.

    In order for morphing to fit any and all shapes, one would have to load all those shapes into the original figure - even ones that don't exist yet.

    That's why you see lists like this on clothing models
    Supported Shapes:
    Arabella 7
    Bethany 7
    Eva 7
    Gia 7
    Izabella 7
    Karen 7
    Mei Lin 7
    Olympia 7
    Teen Josie 7
    The Girl 7
    Victoria 7

    Using any other custom XXXX 7 morph is not going to fit without some effort on the user's part.

    Just wanted to clarify this...some things will work without any custom shapes if the mesh is built in a certain way. Blondie's original tutorial on rigging in DS with the original genesis showed some examples of extreme morphs fitting with no worries using the auto generated morphs. Auto generated morphs do seem to be better in Genesis 2 and 3 also.

    In regards to custom morph creation that's going to depend upon the clothing creator, many will provide a range of morphs as you cited.

    In regards to new morphs that come onto the scene it is relatively easy to create a custom morph for distribution if you wanted to and some vendors do update their products.

    An example of this is I have created a Diva morph for Mada's flower fairy for Dawn and have her permission to release it as a freebie. I'm only holding off until I can create an injection file for it so that poser users will also have access to it.

    Also most morphs will work quite well if you add either/or smoothing modifiers or push modifiers. I personally prefer custom morphs but you can get good results without one.



  • @vilters said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    Tja. . . Here the Poser11Pro have the "Copy Morphs from" tool, that the Poser11 users do not have.

    They can however re-create any figure morph into clothing using the Morphs brush to make a "Custom Morph fit ".

    There are always ways to make something fit.
    And as a last resort? => Take the original obj file into Blender and make it fit.

    REMARK : Use the original obj file. NEVER reuse ANY obj exported from Poser or you will end up with issues at the vertex-groups welds.

    This is so true...I do wish though that the copy morphs was available to all users not just content creators who own the pro version.



  • @Pendraia My only problem with yours and Tony's assertion about making clothes fit is that it is basically a skill that not all people are adept at. What's the point in having a tool if you have no idea how it works or how to properly use it? To me, the best solution to having users solve their own clothing problems is Wardrobe wizard, and even that requires some fiddling with every now and then.


  • Poser Team

    I have been thinking about this for a bit, and there is a solution to a lot of the fitting problems for clothes in Poser.
    This solution probably wont work for older content, but it could for future content.

    The answer? Paul and Pauline. (I know, you probably think I bumped my head. But let me explain my reasoning)

    Paul and Pauline are resource figures.
    No they are not replacements for every figure out there but they do offer things that we have not had before.
    And the biggest thing they offer is being reusable templates.

    You can now make figures that reuse any parts of them.
    Skeletons can be reused, UV's can be matched, You could even reuse parts of the mesh if you wanted too.

    Lets consider the skeletons for a bit.
    If you make a new figure and base it off of one of those skeletons, you can reuse a lot from the original figure without a lot of work. Poses will work, and you can even create a file for it so Poser can use the Universal Poses system so they need very little tweaking at all.
    With similar skeletons, the clothes will also be reusable as well. Yes you will probably need new morphs for that body shape, but you wont have to start from scratch.
    Hair will be even easier, and at most need joint centers and a morph for the head shape applied to it.
    Genesis uses a very similar concept, but I have seen some oddities in Genesis stuff where it does not always work out as planned.
    With any system that reuses stuff, you are going to have issues somewhere no matter how you go about it.
    A suit that fits me great, may not work so well on everyone, and it is not much different in the 3D world either.

    Lets consider the UV's.
    One of the biggest hurdles with any new figures is textures.
    Textures take a fair mount of time to make, and if there are already textures out there you are that far ahead already.

    The meshes, well there is a lot you can do with those, or you can just create new ones.

    What does doing it this way mean? Basically that new figures now have a way of reusing things from others if they are based off of something else? Sound familiar? Studio? Genesis (inset number here)?

    Its great that we have tons of figures for Poser, but it depends on the version of Poser you have, your skill level, if different content can be applied to another figure. For years we have had all sorts of tools available to do things like this.
    Wardrobe Wizard, Morphing Clothes, Netherworks hair conversion system, Lyrra's Fitting room sets, Blacksmith texture transformer, the list goes on. We needed these because there was very little commonality between the figures.

    Now we have a way of legally making some commonality between newer figures.
    No Paul and Pauline probably wont be the end all replacement setups, just as Genesis 1 isn't anymore in Studio.
    But the foundation is now laid down for Poser to have a similar system, just in a different way.

    Food for thought.....



  • @eclark1849 said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @Pendraia My only problem with yours and Tony's assertion about making clothes fit is that it is basically a skill that not all people are adept at. What's the point in having a tool if you have no idea how it works or how to properly use it? To me, the best solution to having users solve their own clothing problems is Wardrobe wizard, and even that requires some fiddling with every now and then.

    Hey Earl, as you probably know my real life job is teaching. So in answer to what you've said I would have to say that education people is the best way to go if they have a task that needs to be done and they're not sure how to do it.
    The simplest solution is to provide a simple way within the program to allow clothing to fit. I'm not trying to start anything here but DS's autofit is a great case in point it does allow users with little knowledge of the software to quickly and easily fit clothing to a variety of morphs and even convert to other figures if there is a clone available. Is it perfect? No...that's why I frequently after converting will take things into Zbrush and will save it within DS so I can reuse it. But for a once off use smoothing and push modifiers can cure most problems.
    I've tried some of the other converters over the years (I'm not sure that I've used wardrobe wizard though) and none of them have been as simple to use. They all have a learning curve...most new processes will require some learning to get the best use out of them.



  • @shvrdavid said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    And the biggest thing they offer is being reusable templates.

    You can now make figures that reuse any parts of them.
    Skeletons can be reused, UV's can be matched, You could even reuse parts of the mesh if you wanted too.

    This is great, as I said in an earlier post I haven't got Poser 11 yet but I have heard some good things about what it can do. I'm particularly keen to get access to the injection creation. A friend was recently converting his morphs over to Poser for Dawn and he was able to not only save the injection but it included the ability to realign rigging. When I created the injections for Diva I had to hand edit the cr2 file to create the INJ file as scripts available to include the offsets for the rigging. I'm really interested in seeing what it can do.

    With similar skeletons, the clothes will also be reusable as well. Yes you will probably need new morphs for that body shape, but you wont have to start from scratch.

    This sounds good also but is it available only in the pro version? Fitting clothing to a figure is something that all users need to have access to...which was my point earlier about copy morphs. Copy morphs isn't hard to use once you know it's there and should really be available in all versions of Poser. It is something that all users would find useful not just clothing creators.

    Genesis uses a very similar concept, but I have seen some oddities in Genesis stuff where it does not always work out as planned.
    With any system that reuses stuff, you are going to have issues somewhere no matter how you go about it.

    So true...especially when converting things that are a bit different to standard clothing. Also sometimes the weight mapping needs some minor tweaks.

    Lets consider the UV's.
    One of the biggest hurdles with any new figures is textures.
    Textures take a fair mount of time to make, and if there are already textures out there you are that far ahead already.

    Does Poser 11 have a system in place for this? And how does it work?

    Its great that we have tons of figures for Poser, but it depends on the version of Poser you have, your skill level, if different content can be applied to another figure. For years we have had all sorts of tools available to do things like this.

    Yes, but many of the things you've mentioned require purchasing additional scripts etc., to work that was something I found frustrating when I was converting Diva. Things that I asked how to do often required me to purchase an additional script or tool. Creating her in DS didn't require anything except DS and the modelling program and the process was so much quicker. To get vendors creating for Poser it needs to be quick and easy. I want to see this happen...it would make what I'm doing at the moment easier.

    No Paul and Pauline probably wont be the end all replacement setups, just as Genesis 1 isn't anymore in Studio.
    But the foundation is now laid down for Poser to have a similar system, just in a different way.

    Food for thought.....

    Agreed...that no figure is ever going to be the final one. Technology keeps moving forward and figures need updating. I loved Genesis 1 and what it was capable of. I wasn't happy when they split the figure but understand why they did it, but there have been some advances in terms of the projections templates with later versions. I'm really looking forward to seeing where Poser goes with this but I also think that you need to remember the Hivewire figures which are really excellent figures.

    One question as someone who is new to Poser...why is it that the default setting is not for unimesh figures? It took me ages to work out what I was doing wrong when trying to convert Diva and why she didn't look as good in Poser as DS. I know it's a simple thing to do but that's only once you know to do it.



  • @eternityblue said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    I would love to see something where all Poser vendors could place their stuff for 'window shopping' and then just link to whatever store the content creators are comfortable with. I don't see why this would need to be very complicated. A shopping mall is filled with different stores but you just have to go to that one place. Even a dumb photo gallery app that allows multiple users and hyperlinks would suffice.

    Whatever3D.com does something like that.



  • @dcrosby Oh, I see that's already been dealt with... like two weeks ago. Sheesh

    @dcrosby said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @eternityblue said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    I would love to see something where all Poser vendors could place their stuff for 'window shopping' and then just link to whatever store the content creators are comfortable with. I don't see why this would need to be very complicated. A shopping mall is filled with different stores but you just have to go to that one place. Even a dumb photo gallery app that allows multiple users and hyperlinks would suffice.

    Whatever3D.com does something like that.

    Oh, I see that's already been dealt with... like two weeks ago. Never mind.


  • Poser Team

    @Pendraia

    Hi Pen.

    As far as refitting clothes go, I did it for years before there was a fitting room. With the combination of magnets, the morph brush, and the Setup room, you can refit just about anything in the base version. Pro offers the Fitting Room and the ability to copy basic morph info to the cloth. Neither way is point and click, and I don't think it was ever meant to be. Poser uses a wide array of figures based on different setups, And taking Posette clothes into Studio is not going to be a point and click refit because of that. Your working with a hand full of figures in Studio, and hundreds in Poser.

    The UV system now in place in Poser comes from a completely different direction than what Studio offers.
    Studio offers figures, many of which have multiple UV's to reuse existing content from previous generations.
    Poser now offers a male and female UV template that can be re used on new figures. Basically this means that since they are resource figures, new figures can use the same textures setup (UV info), and use Paul or Pauline textures. Your new figure will have every texture set for the UV template you used available to get and put on it as soon as it hits the store.

    As far as quick and easy to rig in Poser, I do it all the time but you need the Pro version to do so. I also have some scripts as well, and You have to have a cr2 editor to do certain things manually. It would be nice if you could do everything figure wise in Poser, and in Studio. But you cant. Neither of them can make a wire frame real well, etc. At some point unless you have a Studio level program, it wont do everything. I have rigged in Studio as well, and it has its own set of quarks as well, but is generally a bit faster to do.
    Keep in mind that Poser is the main product. The main product for Studio is content in the Daz Store.
    Poser makes money by selling you the version of Poser you want, Studio with content.

    On the default for unimesh, I don't really know why. There are times that you don't want it in unimesh mode as well.
    There are also times that you may switch back and forth will rigging something as well.



  • Hi shvrdavid,

    @shvrdavid said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    As far as refitting clothes go, I did it for years before there was a fitting room. With the combination of magnets, the morph brush, and the Setup room, you can refit just about anything in the base version. Pro offers the Fitting Room and the ability to copy basic morph info to the cloth. Neither way is point and click, and I don't think it was ever meant to be. Poser uses a wide array of figures based on different setups, And taking Posette clothes into Studio is not going to be a point and click refit because of that. Your working with a hand full of figures in Studio, and hundreds in Poser.

    That sounds fairly complicated using magnets, morph brush and the setup room. The reason I suggested copy morphs would be good in the base version is it's less complicated to use than magnets. As someone new to Poser one of the things that I find frustrating is the learning curve. I'm mainly learning to use it so I can set up products for others (like Diva) who use Poser. I use lots of different figures in DS some quite old now like the Nursoda figures but I find that I prefer the newer figures for the most part. My go to figures are Dawn, Dusk and Luna but I also use the Genesis 3 figures and I will always love the original Genesis. I've managed to set up my own clones for some stuff so for me getting Genesis 3 stuff onto Dawn and Dusk is relatively easy. I would love some other clones for Dawn and Dusk but I can quite easily get old clothes onto the original genesis and then get it across from genesis to dawn. It's more likely to need work in a modeler but still only a few clicks to get it onto Dawn and then shoot it over to ZBrush.

    The UV system now in place in Poser comes from a completely different direction than what Studio offers.
    Studio offers figures, many of which have multiple UV's to reuse existing content from previous generations.
    Poser now offers a male and female UV template that can be re used on new figures. Basically this means that since they are resource figures, new figures can use the same textures setup (UV info), and use Paul or Pauline textures. Your new figure will have every texture set for the UV template you used available to get and put on it as soon as it hits the store.

    That does sound a bit different but it will hopefully make it easier to get a wider variety of characters for Paul and Pauline. Will the different figures also be able to use the same inj files? Or will they need individual Inj files?

    As far as quick and easy to rig in Poser, I do it all the time but you need the Pro version to do so. I also have some scripts as well, and You have to have a cr2 editor to do certain things manually. It would be nice if you could do everything figure wise in Poser, and in Studio. But you cant. Neither of them can make a wire frame real well, etc. At some point unless you have a Studio level program, it wont do everything. I have rigged in Studio as well, and it has its own set of quarks as well, but is generally a bit faster to do.
    Keep in mind that Poser is the main product. The main product for Studio is content in the Daz Store.
    Poser makes money by selling you the version of Poser you want, Studio with content.

    I haven't learned to rig in Poser yet. It's on my to do list but my brief forays into the set up room haven't been easy so far(I do have the pro version just not Poser Pro 11 yet). Not saying it's a bad program just that I've always found Poser difficult to use due to the interface. I also find Bryce difficult to use and I believe iirc that they were designed by the same person. I agree that it is a bit faster to rig in DS and yes it does have it's quirks and bugs.

    On the default for unimesh, I don't really know why. There are times that you don't want it in unimesh mode as well.
    There are also times that you may switch back and forth will rigging something as well.

    I get that...my thoughts were along the lines of that the newer figures like Dawn and Dusk tend to be unimesh and for getting new people in to Poser, it's just one more hurdle to jump before being able to do a decent render. I suppose it comes down to what type of figure Smith Micro wish to push as their go to figure. One that's unimesh or the more traditional style...


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to Graphics Forum was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.