Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?



  • @vilters SM should simply STOP creating new figures. Instead, go back to their popular figures and FIX what is wrong with them (what users have been reporting for YEARS) incorporate new rigging methods and market the heck out of what they ALREADY have.

    You know, like Blackhearted did with Alyson.

    Make the existing figures viable!!!!!!!!!!

    Where is it written that we have to re-invent the wheel with every new version?



  • @Glitterati3D said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @HiveWireChris said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @Glitterati3D said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    For example, I don't do commercial products for Baby Luna. Her Poser rigging needs some attention and until that is repaired, I won't ask a customer to PAY for what I consider an inferior product.

    Perhaps you can email me with the areas that you feel are inferior with the rigging. I'd like to know. We've created a solid product with Baby Luna and the rigging by Paul and the maps by Virtual World are unsurpassed by any other baby in this market. I'd like to know if these short coming, then we can address them, so that others can share positively about this product, and you in turn can feel better about the many products you've created for her.

    You know, Chris, if I hadn't already reported the issues I would take the time to write it all out AGAIN for you. But, I have and, now, I won't again. Besides, you'll just ignore it a second time.

    Ahh, come on Traci, give Chris another chance to engage. Frankly, I don't use Luna, myself, but I'd still like to know what your opinion of her is. And I wouldn't ask if i didn't respect your opinion.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    I absolutely agree Tracy.

    And Poser has the tools to do it now.

    Just yesterday, I was able to fix a figure that comes with an unwelded head.
    Normally, you can fix that in Blender, but you loose all morphs.
    Not so with Blender and Poser11Pro any more.

    I also fixed the Alyson Lo Res that way. Her head is partially unwelded from the neck. => Fixed, and all morphs working.

    Poser11Pro is a great software. But all included figures need repair jobs.



  • @Glitterati3D said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @vilters SM should simply STOP creating new figures. Instead, go back to their popular figures and FIX what is wrong with them (what users have been reporting for YEARS) incorporate new rigging methods and market the heck out of what they ALREADY have.

    You know, like Blackhearted did with Alyson.

    Make the existing figures viable!!!!!!!!!!

    Where is it written that we have to re-invent the wheel with every new version?

    Personally, I totally agree. I even said as much last time when we were talking about Teyon creating a new figure for Poser 11. I would have been happier if they had simply improved Roxie and fixed her problems. Instead they brought out Pauline. My best idea at this point is to go back to the beginning and engage a third party to create a new figure for Poser if you have to ship one with the new version. That's why I honestly hope that SM and Hivewire can get together again with Dawn 2.0. I'd rather SM and the Poser development team spend their time fixing the features they already have and implementing new ones than to waste time and effort on a figure that not that many people will even use.



  • @eclark1849 Well, SM throws figures out there and just abandons them.

    Why would vendors even consider working with a figure that will be abandoned by the creator? They won't.

    If you want figure support, you have to support the figures first and then, the content creators who sign on.



  • I would love to use the features and detail of the latest Genesis figures (what version are they on now? 2,437?) but obviously I can't if I want to use Poser. And I don't enjoy using Studio, so that leaves me out of being able to use the newest, arguably most advanced figures out there.

    I'm still using V4 and M4 because they are so widely supported.

    I'd pretty happily switch to using Dawn and Dusk if SM and Hivewire could get together and use their strengths to create an amazing character set that competes more with Genesis than they currently do.

    I wanted to like Pauline and Paul, but I just don't. They were just unattractive. Nothing attracted me to them, nothing endeared me to them. And unfortunately, no matter how inherently super-duper a figure may be, if it's unattractive, nobody's going to support it.

    A car company might make the most amazing car out there, full of features and performance, but if it's unattractive, it won't sell or become a benchmark for the other companies to reach. Why hasn't SM learned this?

    I hate to point this out, but the Genesis figures are beautiful and advanced. Right out of the gate, too. No waiting on the community to make this mod or that.

    But hey...Pauline has face handles, so, um... Yeah.

    I fear their potential will go to waste, like almost all the other SM figures.



  • @James_in_3D There's a lot in your post that I am just going to ignore, but I have a couple questions for you.

    What is it that you think SM + Hivewire could do to make Dawn/Dusk better? Because, quite frankly, they are simply the best rigged Poser figures out there.

    Does your opinion come from using the figures or from what you have "heard" and read somewhere? Because, quite frankly, I rig for them BOTH daily. While Dusk has some rigging foibles, they are easy to work around and rigging for him, once you understand how to, is fast and easy.

    As for Dawn, DawnSR2/SE are dreams to rig for. Period.

    Dusk is inarguably the best Poser rigged male figure on the market. And, he's FREE. I'd really like to know how one improves on that?



  • @Glitterati3D said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @James_in_3D There's a lot in your post that I am just going to ignore, but I have a couple questions for you.

    What is it that you think SM + Hivewire could do to make Dawn/Dusk better? Because, quite frankly, they are simply the best rigged Poser figures out there.

    Does your opinion come from using the figures or from what you have "heard" and read somewhere? Because, quite frankly, I rig for them BOTH daily. While Dusk has some rigging foibles, they are easy to work around and rigging for him, once you understand how to, is fast and easy.

    As for Dawn, DawnSR2/SE are dreams to rig for. Period.

    Dusk is inarguably the best Poser rigged male figure on the market. And, he's FREE. I'd really like to know how one improves on that?

    @Glitterati3D Calm down please. Every post you make is so freaking confrontational and defensive. Just chill please.

    I never, anywhere, said Dawn and Dusk were bad figures. At all. Ever. I never said anything about their rigging. Never said one word. Never complained about them. At all.

    Can they do what Genesis does? Not presently. But they could. If Hivewire and SM combined efforts and gave Dawn some kind of advantage technologically over Genesis, in the way Genesis currently has an advantage over most other figures.

    But right now SM is working with Pauline and Paul. And Hivewire is going it alone.

    FWIW I just bought the newest version of Dawn, and I'm looking forward to working with her.



  • @James_in_3D How was I being confrontational? I simply asked some questions for clarification.

    I still want to know what they don't do that Genesis DOES do? How is that confrontational?



  • @James_in_3D I don't think Glitterati was confrontational at all. You made a claim and she asked you what you thought was wrong with the figures. I'd like to know as well. What is is that Genesis does that you want the Hivewire figures to do? What's wrong with asking about that?



  • @eclark1849 said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @James_in_3D I don't think Glitterati was confrontational at all. You made a claim and she asked you what you thought was wrong with the figures. I'd like to know as well. What is is that Genesis does that you want the Hivewire figures to do? What's wrong with asking about that?

    I guess you didn't read my reply. I never said there was anything wrong with the Hivewire figures. At all.

    I've read your posts for a long time, @eclark1849. And I know you know more about the differences, strengths, and weaknesses of the various figures out there than your question lets on, and you don't need me to explain anything. I don't need to point anything out. I've seen you point out the various weaknesses of this character or that on RDNA. I waded through those long discussions. So I'm going to take your question as rhetorical. I also know you like to argue. :)

    So I will say this again: I never said Hivewire figures were bad. I said this: "I'd pretty happily switch to using Dawn and Dusk if SM and Hivewire could get together and use their strengths to create an amazing character set that competes more with Genesis than they currently do." Wait, that's very similar to what you said.

    "My best idea at this point is to go back to the beginning and engage a third party to create a new figure for Poser if you have to ship one with the new version. That's why I honestly hope that SM and Hivewire can get together again with Dawn 2.0. I'd rather SM and the Poser development team spend their time fixing the features they already have and implementing new ones than to waste time and effort on a figure that not that many people will even use."

    I never even said they weren't competitive. My exact words regarding competitiveness were "more than they currently do". Which implies that they do, in fact compete. Because they do. They are direct competition to Genesis. No one needs me to explain why they aren't as competitive as Genesis. I know any number of people could offer valid reasons for this. Oh wait, people have, in other posts here and elsewhere, like posts you've taken part in on RDNA.

    So, having said this, Glitterati's series of questions for me about rigging were irrelevant to my comments. I never even mentioned rigging in regards to Dawn and Dusk. At all. Never said they were bad. Never said they were inferior.

    Such defensiveness.

    What's wrong with asking the questions she asked? Nothing. I never said there was anything wrong with what she asked.

    Anyway, this ends my responses to you, and to her on this subject.



  • @James_in_3D Now, you're just being defensive. Granted you didn't say they were "bad" figures, or that anything was "wrong" with them. Fine. A poor choice of words on my part, then. but all she asked you to do was to elaborate on what you thought Hivewire or SM could do to improve the figures? What's wrong with asking that and why is it confrontational ?

    Do I have problems with other figures? Sure! Do I have problems with Genesis? The ONLY bad thing I have EVER posted about Genesis is that they won't run natively in Poser, and they won't run on my Mac. Other than that I've never used Genesis to form a critical opinion of the figures at all. I also don't think I've ever said anything critical about Dawn or Dusk either. I do know that I've never said anything critical in comparison to the way Dusk or Dawn works in comparison to Genesis. You did. just asking you to explain what.



  • @Glitterati3D said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @HiveWireChris said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @Glitterati3D said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    For example, I don't do commercial products for Baby Luna. Her Poser rigging needs some attention and until that is repaired, I won't ask a customer to PAY for what I consider an inferior product.

    Perhaps you can email me with the areas that you feel are inferior with the rigging. I'd like to know. We've created a solid product with Baby Luna and the rigging by Paul and the maps by Virtual World are unsurpassed by any other baby in this market. I'd like to know if these short coming, then we can address them, so that others can share positively about this product, and you in turn can feel better about the many products you've created for her.

    You know, Chris, if I hadn't already reported the issues I would take the time to write it all out AGAIN for you. But, I have and, now, I won't again. Besides, you'll just ignore it a second time.

    Ouch! That came back with a bit if a bite to it. Perhaps you've felt ignored with regards to your concerns. I'll have to pour back thru some dusty emails and see if you've emailed me directly regarding the shortcoming you feel are attached to our Baby Luna. Funny cause it's the same mesh as Dusk and Dawn, and rigged by the same person (Paul) that rigged Dusk and Dawn that apparently you feel are more then adequate in this market.



  • Just to toss this out - what if:

    • All base figures were 'versioned' with compatibility ensured within each whole version

    • All base figures were licensed under an open source license allowing derived characters (there could also be Alyson and "Open Alyson")

    • All base figures had managed source accounts so that SM could integrate third party modifications

    With all of this, each figure could be improved and upgraded as time goes on. Commerical add-ons wouldn't have to be open sourced. Limits could be placed on the license so the models aren't used in a way to that isn't officially sanctioned by SM.

    Some figures have gotten upgrades over the years, but often are replacements. It would be nice to be able to maintain compatibility over a longer period than one version of Poser to the next (which Ill say, has been very good for the most part).



  • @eclark1849 said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @James_in_3D Now, you're just being defensive. Granted you didn't say they were "bad" figures, or that anything was "wrong" with them. Fine. A poor choice of words on my part, then. but all she asked you to do was to elaborate on what you thought Hivewire or SM could do to improve the figures? What's wrong with asking that and why is it confrontational ?

    Do I have problems with other figures? Sure! Do I have problems with Genesis? The ONLY bad thing I have EVER posted about Genesis is that they won't run natively in Poser, and they won't run on my Mac. Other than that I've never used Genesis to form a critical opinion of the figures at all. I also don't think I've ever said anything critical about Dawn or Dusk either. I do know that I've never said anything critical in comparison to the way Dusk or Dawn works in comparison to Genesis. You did. just asking you to explain what.

    Sigh. I said I was done responding, but you do like to argue... :)

    You're not reading what I said. Nor did Glitterati. She started going on about how awesome the rigging is on Dawn and Dusk (while complaining about Baby Luna elsewhere). I never said one darn thing about rigging. I was working with Dawn a couple of days ago after I bought the newest version. I really like the way she moves. I have no complaints about her rigging.

    And I'm not being defensive.:) I'm being vastly misinterpreted, so I elaborated on my original points. I don't need to respond to you or Glitterati about Dawn or Dusk's "foibles" (her word) because I never spoke about anything like that to begin with.

    And again, you don't need me to explain anything to you, nor does Glitterati. Because I never said anything negative about Dawn or Dusk. Her questions to me were irrelevant.

    Again, my overall point was similar to yours, that HiveWire and SM should get together.

    And I never said you said anything bad about Dawn or Dusk. I said you have pointed out weaknesses of "this character or that" (that's very non-specific). I'll give you this... The discussions about Paul and Pauline, Dawn, Dusk, V4, M4, Genesis, et al, on RDNA were a long time ago. My point in mentioning those long discussions was twofold: you were there and participated in them and demonstrated depth of knowledge regarding how figures work and why they don't work. And that I was witness to the fact you like to argue. ;) Never said there was anything wrong about what you said or how you said it -- or even that you like to argue. But here we are, arguing. :D

    Now if we're all done with the purely argumentative "he said" "she said" "you said" stuff, regarding things I didn't actually say, t have work to do.

    Peace! :)



  • @HiveWireChris You know, Chris, I'm a huge Hivewire cheerleader. But, frankly, I don't like the petty games and personal behavior that results from even pointing out an error in something from Hivewire.

    Luna was designed, as you well know, from the original Dawn mesh. While a laudable effort to make the existing content available to your other figures, some issues were created by that scaling.

    By the time you got down to a baby size, the 2 abdomen groups were reduced to little more than 1 row of polygons. Hence, the abdomens rigging intersect with each other, then, those intersect the chest, and the pelvis intersects all of the above. While you rigged a JCM to deal with those intersections, I can't rig an addon TO a JCM (called a CTRL morph in this case).

    The bottom line is simple - clothing addons in the abdomen/Chest/Hip bends look awful. There's simply no method to clean that up because the CTRL morph prevents any "tricks" from working properly. So, one is reduced to "playing" with the UV map so that a shirt looks good while seated or looks good while standing. The textures do not lay properly depending on the pose because of the rigging limitations - the stretching is not commercial quality.

    Additionally, for some unseen reason, Luna's right foot rigging just randomly disappears from addons during the rigging process. That may be a fault of Poser, I can't possibly know because it's random and I got no response when I reported it before Luna was released.

    I love the Hivewire figures and believe they are the best Poser users can have available. I know they aren't perfect, nothing is.



  • @meshbox said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    Just to toss this out - what if:

    • All base figures were 'versioned' with compatibility ensured within each whole version

    • All base figures were licensed under an open source license allowing derived characters (there could also be Alyson and "Open Alyson")

    • All base figures had managed source accounts so that SM could integrate third party modifications

    With all of this, each figure could be improved and upgraded as time goes on. Commerical add-ons wouldn't have to be open sourced. Limits could be placed on the license so the models aren't used in a way to that isn't officially sanctioned by SM.

    Some figures have gotten upgrades over the years, but often are replacements. It would be nice to be able to maintain compatibility over a longer period than one version of Poser to the next (which Ill say, has been very good for the most part).

    This is a fascinating idea!



  • @eclark1849 said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @James_in_3D Now, you're just being defensive. Granted you didn't say they were "bad" figures, or that anything was "wrong" with them. Fine. A poor choice of words on my part, then. but all she asked you to do was to elaborate on what you thought Hivewire or SM could do to improve the figures? What's wrong with asking that and why is it confrontational ?

    Do I have problems with other figures? Sure! Do I have problems with Genesis? The ONLY bad thing I have EVER posted about Genesis is that they won't run natively in Poser, and they won't run on my Mac. Other than that I've never used Genesis to form a critical opinion of the figures at all. I also don't think I've ever said anything critical about Dawn or Dusk either. I do know that I've never said anything critical in comparison to the way Dusk or Dawn works in comparison to Genesis. You did. just asking you to explain what.

    I will say this about the current Genesis line-up. We have a top tier artist that is just beginning to create content for our HiveWire figures. This artist also creates content for Genesis. But it takes him some 9 hours to get the rigging done and adjusted to fit the required shapes for Genesis and he finds the general weight maps very, very cumbersome to work with. While our figures are rigged off of the Triax methodology and setting up his outfit for Dawn only took him 2 hours. He was blown away from the creator point of view how little time it took to have his product completely ready for Dawn.

    He also told me very recently how pleased he was with our figure and that the rigging was top notch (my paraphrasing of his words). He also apologized for his earlier thinking about our figures. I know from factual experience that certain things were allowed to be said about Dawn that were negative, while the positive was deleted from another sites forum. So many others that are fans of the Genesis line-up have flung nastiness at our figures. While we're simply trying to offer up our best, AND MAKE OUR FIGURES AVAILABLE NATIVELY IN POSER AND STUDIO. Who else is doing that these days with their core figures?!! Remember too that we're still on version one of our figures. Though we've created a big improvement in Dawn with our S.E. version.

    Much more to come in the way of creamy goodness at HiveWire. We do appreciate your support of us and what our little but dedicated and talented team is striving to provide for this group each day.



  • @HiveWireChris said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @eclark1849 said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @James_in_3D Now, you're just being defensive. Granted you didn't say they were "bad" figures, or that anything was "wrong" with them. Fine. A poor choice of words on my part, then. but all she asked you to do was to elaborate on what you thought Hivewire or SM could do to improve the figures? What's wrong with asking that and why is it confrontational ?

    Do I have problems with other figures? Sure! Do I have problems with Genesis? The ONLY bad thing I have EVER posted about Genesis is that they won't run natively in Poser, and they won't run on my Mac. Other than that I've never used Genesis to form a critical opinion of the figures at all. I also don't think I've ever said anything critical about Dawn or Dusk either. I do know that I've never said anything critical in comparison to the way Dusk or Dawn works in comparison to Genesis. You did. just asking you to explain what.

    I will say this about the current Genesis line-up. We have a top tier artist that is just beginning to create content for our HiveWire figures. This artist also creates content for Genesis. But it takes him some 9 hours to get the rigging done and adjusted to fit the required shapes for Genesis and he finds the general weight maps very, very cumbersome to work with. While our figures are rigged off of the Triax methodology and setting up his outfit for Dawn only took him 2 hours. He was blown away from the creator point of view how little time it took to have his product completely ready for Dawn.

    He also told me very recently how pleased he was with our figure and that the rigging was top notch (my paraphrasing of his words). He also apologized for his earlier thinking about our figures. I know from factual experience that certain things were allowed to be said about Dawn that were negative, while the positive was deleted from another sites forum. So many others that are fans of the Genesis line-up have flung nastiness at our figures. While we're simply trying to offer up our best, AND MAKE OUR FIGURES AVAILABLE NATIVELY IN POSER AND STUDIO. Who else is doing that these days with their core figures?!! Remember too that we're still on version one of our figures. Though we've created a big improvement in Dawn with our S.E. version.

    Much more to come in the way of creamy goodness at HiveWire. We do appreciate your support of us and what our little but dedicated and talented team is striving to provide for this group each day.

    Thanks for weighing in, Chris. I've just bought the newest version of Dawn and I'm looking forward to working with her.



  • @HiveWireChris said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @eclark1849 said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @James_in_3D Now, you're just being defensive. Granted you didn't say they were "bad" figures, or that anything was "wrong" with them. Fine. A poor choice of words on my part, then. but all she asked you to do was to elaborate on what you thought Hivewire or SM could do to improve the figures? What's wrong with asking that and why is it confrontational ?

    Do I have problems with other figures? Sure! Do I have problems with Genesis? The ONLY bad thing I have EVER posted about Genesis is that they won't run natively in Poser, and they won't run on my Mac. Other than that I've never used Genesis to form a critical opinion of the figures at all. I also don't think I've ever said anything critical about Dawn or Dusk either. I do know that I've never said anything critical in comparison to the way Dusk or Dawn works in comparison to Genesis. You did. just asking you to explain what.

    I will say this about the current Genesis line-up. We have a top tier artist that is just beginning to create content for our HiveWire figures. This artist also creates content for Genesis. But it takes him some 9 hours to get the rigging done and adjusted to fit the required shapes for Genesis and he finds the general weight maps very, very cumbersome to work with. While our figures are rigged off of the Triax methodology and setting up his outfit for Dawn only took him 2 hours. He was blown away from the creator point of view how little time it took to have his product completely ready for Dawn.

    He also told me very recently how pleased he was with our figure and that the rigging was top notch (my paraphrasing of his words). He also apologized for his earlier thinking about our figures. I know from factual experience that certain things were allowed to be said about Dawn that were negative, while the positive was deleted from another sites forum. So many others that are fans of the Genesis line-up have flung nastiness at our figures. While we're simply trying to offer up our best, AND MAKE OUR FIGURES AVAILABLE NATIVELY IN POSER AND STUDIO. Who else is doing that these days with their core figures?!! Remember too that we're still on version one of our figures. Though we've created a big improvement in Dawn with our S.E. version.

    Much more to come in the way of creamy goodness at HiveWire. We do appreciate your support of us and what our little but dedicated and talented team is striving to provide for this group each day.

    I agree wholeheartedly, Dawn is a dream to rig for. So easy, fast, and intuitive.

    While I can't do any comparison to Genesis as I don't use the figure, I do rig for the Hivewire figures and know fast, easy and painless. That's rigging addons for Dawn.

    Let me also add that when Dawn was upgraded Hivewire to great care to make everything backward compatible. What worked on Dawn v1.0 works on DawnSE.