Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?



  • @eclark1849 Kinda the point I was making.

    Just take a good look. The most recent release of a G3M character will cost you ~$100.00 (discounted) to USE a $12.57 (on sale) character. You gotta buy Michael7, Lee7 AND this character.



  • I would recommend that the policing of the forums is left to those that do so.
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Please respect that.
    Many people here also use both programs.



  • @rg5a said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    Now it's true nobody was born a master, and newbie content creators need a shop which is more forgiving, lest they quit and never progress. But still, the Poser users do need products of this level of quality. There is no Stonemason in our Poser world... :-(

    Why? What is it that Daz does right and other stores don't? I don't know. I only see the results. But a brokerage wanting to compete (not just tag along) might want to ponder this.

    Stonemason does some nice work but you are making general apples-to-oranges comparisons. Most vendors have specialties - some overlap a bit. But I can also say that I see excellent, well supported content from vendors who sell on CP but do not sell on DAZ.

    Honestly, I think you are going to see more and more great content on CP because SM has wisely brought its forums home. The CP way (which I take to be the SM way) is to not take away creator control or an overly excessive percentage of revenue - ultimately, its better support of arts and creators. That is the result of focusing on the software.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    The DAZ store does provide good promo's. That does not mean that the products themselves are of better quality as from other stores. Many of the promos are done by professional artists which have more experience in this area as many vendors.
    Demand for V4 type of products has declined over the past 2 years. Partly due to market saturation (how many bikinis do you need?) and partly because new original offerings are no longer there or are hard to find.
    The offering of items for which there is no market saturation (Pauline, Dawn, Roxy, Scarlet, etc) is very low, so many users shy away from investing in those figures due to lack of confidence in the figure of those figures (with the exception of Dawn which does gain support)

    So it is up to vendors AND users to make new figures successful



  • You do have to search a bit more to find clothes for these figures, but they are out there. EvilInnocense has clothes for Roxie at his store and he did at RDNA, although I'm pretty sure, DAZ is NOT going to host those clothes at their store.



  • @wimvdb said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    The DAZ store does provide good promo's. That does not mean that the products themselves are of better quality as from other stores. Many of the promos are done by professional artists which have more experience in this area as many vendors.

    Agreed.

    I'm not championing DAZ, but their presentation of their products is the gold standard. It's stunning. It's very hard to visit that site without being tempted to buy something -- because it is presented so well and looks so good. (Unfortunately, there isn't a lot for me to buy there anymore, because it's not Poser-friendly!)

    Other sites are archaic and chaotic by comparison.



  • @meshbox said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    Honestly, I think you are going to see more and more great content on CP because SM has wisely brought its forums home. The CP way (which I take to be the SM way) is to not take away creator control or an overly excessive percentage of revenue - ultimately, its better support of arts and creators. That is the result of focusing on the software.

    I hope you are right. I feel like SM and Poser are on the cusp of some seriously amazing opportunities. It's just going to take some savvy and bold decision making.



  • @eclark1849 said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    And then there's the matter of which rigging do you support? Pauline's original SM rig, or Shvrdavid's or Vilters' re-rig. One one of the several other's floating around out there?

    Agreed. I really, really wanted to use Pauline...until everyone and their dog came up with a new rigging. Which one do I choose to use?!

    For me -- at present anyway -- I just can't choose. Not until one version of Pauline wins out and becomes some kind of de facto standard.

    And if that never happens... oh well.

    Pauline has such HUGE potential. I hope that it isn't being wasted whilst people chase off down this rabbit hole or that one.

    Being able to be creative and make new stuff is great and is why we use Poser to begin with... but sometimes standardization can be helpful.



  • @James_in_3D said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    I hope you are right. I feel like SM and Poser are on the cusp of some seriously amazing opportunities. It's just going to take some savvy and bold decision making.

    Yes, but the answer is not to become a clone of DAZ 3D (much like I would say Hivewire3d has become in its vendor management).

    SM enables a great marketplace for 3D products. They don't care if you are selling through other stores or selling directly. If a product has a quality problem reported on Content Paradise, then SM relays that to the vendor, and the vendor addresses the problem. SM doesn't layer on a bunch of costs that increase their profits but are paid for by reducing the money that is made by vendor. In addition, a vendor on Content Paradise controls pricing, release and sales - so releases make sense to the benefit of customers and the vendors, and not solely to the betterment of the brokerage.

    In short, the free market (and not the walled garden) of CP makes it possible to provide more and better models.



  • @meshbox I don't think that's a fair criticism to call Hivewire a DAZ clone. After all, the main person there STARTED DAZ, so naturally he's going to go with what he knows. But I'll let Chris defend is own practices.

    As for CP, they have shortcomings of their own, and I'm speaking from being a vendor there myself. My BIGGEST criticism from CP is no vendor or product promotion. No one knows what's on sale there at any given time. It just shows up and if you happen across it, whooo, lucky find. As for their figures, They barely support them themselves. Why would any other outlet. And finally, I just don't like their download policy.

    That said, and why I lobbied to be there AS a vendor is because I believe that CP SHOULD BE considered the HOME of the Poser figures.



  • @meshbox said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @James_in_3D said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    I hope you are right. I feel like SM and Poser are on the cusp of some seriously amazing opportunities. It's just going to take some savvy and bold decision making.

    Yes, but the answer is not to become a clone of DAZ 3D (much like I would say Hivewire3d has become in its vendor management).

    SM enables a great marketplace for 3D products. They don't care if you are selling through other stores or selling directly. If a product has a quality problem reported on Content Paradise, then SM relays that to the vendor, and the vendor addresses the problem. SM doesn't layer on a bunch of costs that increase their profits but are paid for by reducing the money that is made by vendor. In addition, a vendor on Content Paradise controls pricing, release and sales - so releases make sense to the benefit of customers and the vendors, and not solely to the betterment of the brokerage.

    In short, the free market (and not the walled garden) of CP makes it possible to provide more and better models.

    I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate where you're coming from as a vendor. By many accounts, DAZ can be...let's say "challenging" to work with. And be assured that I'm not a fan of the walled garden concept that DAZ is working on. It is pretty apparent that they want to be a monopoly, and that's not good for anyone.

    While what you're saying in your post affects both vendors and customers, I have to look at this solely as a customer because that's what I currently am.

    But just to be clear, I wasn't (and am not) suggesting that CP become a "clone" of DAZ. :) <--this smiley is far too smiley...

    What my points here encompass is the suggestion that CP needs to up its game as far as marketing, presentation, and promotion in order to be vitally competitive with DAZ.

    They don't have to clone themselves, but they should learn from them. If a business can't learn from its competitor and then take what has been learned and do better than its competitor... that business is not going to do very well.

    I want CP and Poser to not just survive, but to thrive. As I mentioned, there is a huge opportunity here. CP could, should they make wise choices, be a major competitor for DAZ. This could be beneficial for you as a vendor (love your products by the way), but also for me, as a customer.



  • @meshbox said

    Yes, but the answer is not to become a clone of DAZ 3D (much like I would say Hivewire3d has become in its vendor management).

    Figured I might chime in here if I may. I know this is only your opinion Meshbox as to the clone comparison. Because I don't recall that you've submitting content to HiveWire, though perhaps you have with DAZ. I believe your thoughts are formulated by some other means as opposed to actual experience with us. I'd be more inclined to say that we're similar with DAZ because we publish content from other artists, and from there our process diverges quite a bit.

    I also add that we as HiveWire create our own core figures so that we don't have to rely on the DAZ methodology, and that this is good for us and those artists that choose to publish with us. We're quite unique from DAZ for several reasons, and our core beliefs that we choose to do business by can be found on our site.

    I had a good conversation today with a contributing artist that creates some gorgeous content and publishes that with us, and she was recalling why she publishes with us as opposed to her old publisher DAZ. I can assure you that it was due to our difference, and not to our similarities (those that might be deemed clone worthy).

    I do appreciate having our content and store mentioned in this thread in a positive fashion, as there seems to be a few comments that mention us as being a viable option. Thank you to those that want us to succeed right along side with Poser. We're striving for success and working hard and smart to make that a reality. We communicate on a regular basis with Charles, and are closing in on being considered as a "partner" status. We have some things happening with the Poser group that will be of benefit to both of us. So this is a good thing. Though I do wish we could be doing more with Poser, I think we're doing enough. I certainly hope so. We want very much for Poser to thrive!!

    One more comment then I'm out, promise. I had another conversation this week with a superior artist that currently publishes with DAZ, as he's now developing content for Dawn and Dusk as well. His mind set is that Poser is for those that don't want to move forward to something new (that being Studio), and that Poser is on it's way out. I assured him that Poser is here to stay and that under the direction of Charles as Product Manager and the passion he has for Poser, coupled with the developers, it's future is in good hands. We at HiveWire are trying hard to create a bridge with our content to span the needs of both Poser and Studio users. Though that bridge is getting wider and more challenging to support, no fault of ours I might add.

    Long live Poser!!



  • @eclark1849 said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    As for CP, they have shortcomings of their own, and I'm speaking from being a vendor there myself. My BIGGEST criticism from CP is no vendor or product promotion. No one knows what's on sale there at any given time. It just shows up and if you happen across it, whooo, lucky find. As for their figures, They barely support them themselves. Why would any other outlet. And finally, I just don't like their download policy.

    Any vendor can control their own sales at any time. Any vendor can do their own marketing.

    For example, I noticed that there's been less activity among Bryce and Shade 3D buyers, so I set up a freebie of just those versions of Granny's Trailer for this weekend. I didn't have to get anyone's permission to do that (Get Granny's Trailer before Monday! ). It takes me just a few minutes to do that.

    I didn't say CP is perfect. There are things I would like there too. But CP doesn't get in my way, just like resellers don't get in the way of software vendors. They don't try to own every aspect of the relationship.



  • @James_in_3D said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    What my points here encompass is the suggestion that CP needs to up its game as far as marketing, presentation, and promotion in order to be vitally competitive with DAZ.

    They don't have to clone themselves, but they should learn from them. If a business can't learn from its competitor and then take what has been learned and do better than its competitor... that business is not going to do very well.

    I completely agree. It can always be better.



  • @HiveWireChris said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    Figured I might chime in here if I may. I know this is only your opinion Meshbox as to the clone comparison. Because I don't recall that you've submitting content to HiveWire, though perhaps you have with DAZ. I believe your thoughts are formulated by some other means as opposed to actual experience with us. I'd be more inclined to say that we're similar with DAZ because we publish content from other artists, and from there our process diverges quite a bit.

    Hi Chris,

    I didn't specifically mean to pick on you, but Hivewire 3D for obvious reasons is the one brokerage most comparable to DAZ, so I apologize in advance if you feel picked on. Everyone knows you are a big, lovable bear of a man :bear:

    Selling products from other vendors either makes you a reseller (you sell a 'package' but don't concern yourself with what's inside) or a brokerage (you sell a license by proxy and act as a wall between vendor and customer), so that is a commonality with DAZ, CP, Rendo and others. The more a brokerage resembles the former, the easier it is to customize offerings specifically to customer needs.

    Your terms and conditions for vendors were, when you started, very similar to DAZ, so that stopped us from applying to be a vendor at Hivewire. I haven't looked at them recently. DAZ terms only make fiscal sense under very specific conditions.

    I also add that we as HiveWire create our own core figures so that we don't have to rely on the DAZ methodology, and that this is good for us and those artists that choose to publish with us. We're quite unique from DAZ for several reasons, and our core beliefs that we choose to do business by can be found on our site.

    Making your own figures isn't a differentiation. Making great and original figures though is, and Id say that IS Hivewire's difference. I think Dawn is a fantastic character.

    I had a good conversation today with a contributing artist that creates some gorgeous content and publishes that with us, and she was recalling why she publishes with us as opposed to her old publisher DAZ. I can assure you that it was due to our difference, and not to our similarities (those that might be deemed clone worthy).

    Sure. I am certain that the Hivewire culture is more in line with what it was when you and Dan were DAZ.

    One more comment then I'm out, promise. I had another conversation this week with a superior artist that currently publishes with DAZ, as he's now developing content for Dawn and Dusk as well. His mind set is that Poser is for those that don't want to move forward to something new (that being Studio), and that Poser is on it's way out.

    Id say a good argument for that is that although DAZ gets its hooks into people at first with being free, digital production houses and film companies have a very favorable impression of Poser. At least that is my direct experience in working with such companies. Selling at DAZ ensures that you will be sought out by users of DAZ Studio. Supporting Poser means the entire 3D industry is open to you.


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    @meshbox said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @eclark1849 said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    As for CP, they have shortcomings of their own, and I'm speaking from being a vendor there myself. My BIGGEST criticism from CP is no vendor or product promotion. No one knows what's on sale there at any given time. It just shows up and if you happen across it, whooo, lucky find. As for their figures, They barely support them themselves. Why would any other outlet. And finally, I just don't like their download policy.

    Any vendor can control their own sales at any time. Any vendor can do their own marketing.

    For example, I noticed that there's been less activity among Bryce and Shade 3D buyers, so I set up a freebie of just those versions of Granny's Trailer for this weekend. I didn't have to get anyone's permission to do that (Get Granny's Trailer before Monday! ). It takes me just a few minutes to do that.

    I didn't say CP is perfect. There are things I would like there too. But CP doesn't get in my way, just like resellers don't get in the way of software vendors. They don't try to own every aspect of the relationship.

    If I might chime in -

    I like that CP seems to allow their vendors a larger chunk of their sales than most of the other stores. I don't know what their current rate is but I recall back when they did have those numbers posted that they were higher than the others I'd looked at. But at the same time, I don't mind giving the store a (slightly) larger cut in exchange for marketing promotion, as it is supposed to be. That is, if that marketing is actually happening, and at a lot of stores it's not - the owners wind up pocketing most of it and only promote their top vendors, while all the vendors are paying for that promotion, and then use circular logic to justify it.

    But at the same time, a lot of artists, myself included, really suck at self promotion. And even if they do know how to market themselves and find their own customers, that can get pretty expensive pretty quick, for a solo artist or even a small team.

    Then you also have to look at the site statistics. Is it better to be able to keep most of your sales revenue when the brokerage you're selling through only has less than 10% or so of the traffic that the other top brokerages have? I guess that's a case-by-case opinion really. But sometimes it's better to pay a bit more in order to have access to all the extra eyes, even if you're not one of the select few that get their stores promoted.

    The one thing that I definitely hope CP changes is their extended download policy that so many people have complained about and sited as a deciding factor for why they don't shop there.



  • @AmbientShade said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    Then you also have to look at the site statistics. Is it better to be able to keep most of your sales revenue when the brokerage you're selling through only has less than 10% or so of the traffic that the other top brokerages have? I guess that's a case-by-case opinion really. But sometimes it's better to pay a bit more in order to have access to all the extra eyes, even if you're not one of the select few that get their stores promoted.

    You have a parallel situation. High volume, lower revenue per sale isn't a bad thing, but it is worse for selling content then other types of products because content can get 'tired' - but that's also dependent on your products actually getting promoted and not lost in an ocean of constant cheap-cheap-cheap sales. Only top most vendors get ahead on certain sites in the long term, and others are left wondering why they never quite get there.

    There are a lot of things solo artists and small teams can accomplish on their own, or working with other vendors. We've been around for a very long time now (before the Zygote / DAZ split up), and we are living proof that it works. Because I can pay myself and pay team members, we can keep making high quality models and provide direct support and services customers want.



  • For me to spend any real money at CP, I need some assurance there is quality control in place. When I first started, I got burned on some badly done products purchased at CP and I've just never gone back because of it.

    Yes, the download policy sucks, but that's the least of my problems with CP. I keep backups of my files and rarely need to go back to the source for a copy.

    It's the lack of quality control that keeps me away.

    As for the other sites and the supposed "promotion" that's a complete JOKE unless you are a top seller or an owner. Everyone else just gets burned on the single thing using a brokerage is supposed to accomplish.

    The only "promotion" you get at these brokerages is possibility of NOT getting buried on Page 2 in the first 24 hours.



  • @AmbientShade

    @AmbientShade said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @meshbox said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    @eclark1849 said in Why does nobody in Poserland want my money?:

    As for CP, they have shortcomings of their own, and I'm speaking from being a vendor there myself. My BIGGEST criticism from CP is no vendor or product promotion. No one knows what's on sale there at any given time. It just shows up and if you happen across it, whooo, lucky find. As for their figures, They barely support them themselves. Why would any other outlet. And finally, I just don't like their download policy.

    Any vendor can control their own sales at any time. Any vendor can do their own marketing.

    For example, I noticed that there's been less activity among Bryce and Shade 3D buyers, so I set up a freebie of just those versions of Granny's Trailer for this weekend. I didn't have to get anyone's permission to do that (Get Granny's Trailer before Monday! ). It takes me just a few minutes to do that.

    I didn't say CP is perfect. There are things I would like there too. But CP doesn't get in my way, just like resellers don't get in the way of software vendors. They don't try to own every aspect of the relationship.

    If I might chime in -

    The one thing that I definitely hope CP changes is their extended download policy that so many people have complained about and sited as a deciding factor for why they don't shop there.

    Case in point.
    I was just about to purchase some Tempestart items on sale at CP, and the extended download fee is $8.68. Forget about it!



  • @RobZhena Okay, just for the record, you don't HAVE to pay the download fee. Your choice. I never pay it myself, but I always do make a back up copy of ANYTHING I download from CP.