Some ideas for Clothroom version 2018



  • The Poser Cloth room was introduced with Poser 5 in 2003. It was this feature that made me at the time spend the extra money to buy Poser 5. I have used it a lot.
    If I take the Poser 5 manual (I am a bit sentimal and keep my boxed copy on a shelf) and page chapter 34 I note I could still use that same text for the cloth room in Poser 11, launched 13 years later.

    Yet, there has been 15 years in development of cloth simulation technology since and 15 years of experiience in use have been gained.
    When compared with other systems available now, such as VirtualWorldDynamics(VWD) and Marvelous Designer (MD), the Poser cloth room falls short in a number of aspects. Let me mention a few:

    • Ease of use. Setting up a simulation in the Pose Room is an elaborate sequence of steps through 3 or 4 dialogs. In MD in particular it is merely a matter of droppping the garment into the scene, if necessary manouevring the garment or parts of it around the figure and hit simulate.
    • Flexibility. The Poser Cloth Room works on one single object at a time only. Simulated objects cannot interact in simulation. MD just sees all clohing as one pool of interacting vertices, and the user can add or take out from that pool, remesh and alter, and then continue simulation almost seamlessly.
    • User intervention. Poser Cloth room runs the predefined animation. The simulator follows. The user cannot interfere. If something goes wrong in frame 300, the simulation has to be done all over agian to fix. MD (and AFAIK also VWD) feature constant simulation in which the user can easily pull the clothing item or change things on the fly to correct for example fit and residual poke-thru.
      Sure fixed lengh simulation in the Poser 5 days was the only practical option. Most computers had a single core and a running sim more or less froze up the system. We have moved on since.
    • effect of bias. The stiffness range of the fabric in the cloth room in practice is somewhat limited to cover the full range of fabrics and the effect of bias cut is not taken into account. The orentation of the grain of a fabric relative to the dominant load direction has a large influence on the drape of the fabric.
    • differentiation in properties in weft and warp direction. Cloth Room uses one figure only.
    • response to compression (forming folds) cannot be influenced.

    Technology has made advances in for example adaptive mesh refinement. This means that in the simulation the mesh is refined where necessary, so for example in way of folds, while remaining coarse in areas that do not see severe bending.

    The days of the 'single leading figure' with a myriad of morphs to turn it 'into anything' appear to be counted. Poser follows this trend by providing for example the fitting room and the 'copy morphs from' tool. These tools do a decent job but of course the way a body changes when 'gaining a few pounds' tells very little about how clothing reacts to a similar increase. Dynamic clothing provides a better and more relalistic answer to size change and in general yields a better result. Dynamic clothing is by definition portable between figures.

    So the core of my plea: update the cloth room!

    • introduce continuous simulation and user intevention.

    • Set up the sim automaticallly on load of first dynamic item.

    • Make sure the cloth room is cutting edge technology again. Introduce adaptive mesh refinement and so on.

    • Introduce full fabric properties including non-linear behaviour. Provide a library of fabrics..

    • Provide a 'bridge' from Marvelous Designer, importing item metadata for pressed folds.

    • Provide for facility to read strain in zero condition from UV map for items with flat &unified UV's.

    • If possible provide clothing-body interaction/constant volume constraint (breast zone for example)



  • @F_Verbaas Hmm... some interesting ideas. I agree that Poser definitely needs to update the Cloth Room tech, just not sure how far it needs to be pushed. I'd like to see cloth presets built-in. Maybe add some pre-set spots for customization. I also agree about sims interacting with each other. Something tells me though that would slow the computer down to a crawl.



  • What do you mean sims interacting with each other? A dynamic jacket will follow the folds of a dynamic shirt under it. I'll assume that's not the type of interaction you're referring to.

    I'd like to see shrink feature. I have a figure I use that is on the small side, shrink down from the original figure. I'm constantly having to jump through hoops to make dynamic clothes fit rather than have her swimming in them. I don't understand why the geometry won't shrink with the figure.



  • @redphantom I was referring to only one sim running at a time.



  • IIRC, the cloth sim algorithm being used is from a 3DSMax algorithm. I do not know what licensing applies, there, but that is one reason why the Cloth Room has had a technological edge in the past - It was already technologically advanced at the time, even "cutting edge", so to speak.

    Poser is set up for the user to load a file, press a button, and let "magic" intervene to "do art." This is how it is basically designed. The exception, however, begins in the various "Rooms" where users can really tweak things.

    BUT, few of these "Rooms" have gotten much "button mashing" support. In my opinion, this is where Poser could make the most broad use of "product appeal improvement" to increase user satisfaction and increase sales.

    In essence, Average User Joe starts Poser, opens the library, sees pictures of things, clicks on them, things get loaded, he clicks some more on other things, like Clothing Figures, Props, Lights, Poses and even Material Poses, and then he clicks on the magic Do Art (Render) button and waits.

    This is how Average User Joe uses the program. However, when his Do Art Button doesn't do what he wants it to, he often has to go further into program-dialogue, like the Rooms or a more complex use of the Render dialogue.

    So... What has gotten support "Roomwise" in latest iterations? The Mat room, with its preset loads, the new Fitting Room, with its wonderful stuffs to extend/make dynamic, existing content, the Do Art Button (Render) with new PBR capabilities and all that entails. And that's about it. Even in these situations, there are few "Make it do" buttons and there are many complex 3D-stuffs that the user has to know in order to get their Do Art Button producing what they want.

    I agree completely with all of your suggestions. However, while increasing Poser's technological capabilities in this regard is very, very, desirable and would have excellent impact on the product's capabilities, I have to, I must, point out that it must also pay attention to Average User Joe - There needs to be a "Make it do" button or process for every single process-asset Poser has, including the Cloth Room. Further, AUJ can't, or won't, be expected to know what half the variables are in the Cloth Room. All they know is that they want a "cotton t-shirt" and "jeans" simulation for the chosen items.

    There are no such "Make it do" buttons for AUJ to press in the Cloth Room. Why? The answer is simple - SM has forgotten about AUJ's knowledge level and the frustration that AUJ will encounter when trying to Do Art.

    We need presets, easily redistributable presets, support for Cloth Preset Libraries and, perhaps, even a Cloth Room - Lite panel included in there so that AUJ doesn't have to "get technical" in order to "Do Art."

    I want more than that, of course - I want all those things you want! BUT, I also want things that will increase Poser's popularity, directly, and customer satisfaction. So, in that regard, which I think is equally important, I think what SM needs to first address, without reducing Poser's existing capability, is Average User Joe.

    (If they could make AUJ happier while, at the same time, incorporating your wonderful suggestions, that would be the best of all possible worlds! :) )


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Great info. Looking forward to more.
    Cheerio
    lululee



  • @eclark1849 I did not talk about simulations inter-acting with each-other. The trend is that there is one simulation in which the user can inter-act. This is what Bullet Physics Live Simulation does already. You pull etc objects and you can add and remove objects from the scene. The sim (there is only one!) is then halted automatically until you are done doing what you want to do and hit the start button again.
    The animations make the animated objects and figures move. The simulated objects interact with the other items added to the sim.

    @morkonan: I fully, totally and completely agree with you.
    Poser needs to serve AUJ in doing his art, if only because that makes it easier for me to do mine LOL!
    The items I mention are to my experience essential to make proper fits and to let one sheet look like cotton when it folds and flows and another sheet like silk. If we want to give AUJ (and me!) a button to click for 'silk' and another button for 'cotton' we need the technical means to let something behave like silk or cotton.
    We simply need the deep-tech stuff to make something to make AUJ happy.

    Much of the functionality I mention in the first part (where cloth room sucks) is already available in Bullet Physics and it is even coded in the Python interface. See page 8 and 9 of the PosePython manual, where different codes are given for properties in u and v direction.



  • If only the cloth room could have the possibilities of Marvelous designer, I would be happy.



  • I'd love for the clothroom to add the ability to rotate the camera around during a simulation. I've seen videos of that plugin that that guy over at rendo made for dynamic simulations and I really like that he could rotate the image while it was progressing through the sim.

    Maybe SM should just pay that guy so I can make all my hair dynamic as well. :p

    I'd also like to see a real time simulation mode where you can gently move a character at your last frame and the clothing will follow and fall where it should since it's constantly running the dynamic simulation. It would probably be extremely CPU intensive but if the computer could handle it, it might be a less frustrating way to work with dynamics.



  • @johndoe641
    I assume 'that guy' is Gérald Contesse, the maker of VirtualWorldDynamics.
    Sure here is no reason why the camera, if it is not animated of course, would not be open to be moved while a simulation is going on. Not sure why Poser locks a camera that is not animated. Bulllet Physics live simulation does allow the camera to be moved.

    @bopperthijs
    Sure a sort of 'Marvelous Player' addon would be a perfect solution. I think the mechanism used by DSON could be used here also.
    Allow me to paint a scenario. I presented this few times before on different locations, among which the mourned RuntimeDNA forums. Since these are down the drain now this may be a good occasion to bang the drum again.

    Here goes:

    • user selects figure to dress and loads garment from library.
      -> System in the background calls the corresponding MD garment file and pops up a 'room' representing an MD 3D screen with the selected figure as avatar in 'A' pose and loads the (.zpac) file containing the MD definition of the garment.
    • User uses the 3D tools to fit the garment around the avatar. Some form or automation of this will be fine but initially w can do without. If the pose is standardized and the garment is not too far off in size fit in practice is a matter of seconds. Note here I mean REAL refit, like picking real clothing from a rack and trying it on. If you try a tailoerd fit shirt on a potbellied figure gues what the fabric between the buttons opens. Simulation runs until converged or interupted by user.
    • User poses figure and garment follows pose. Beware that the limitations as in the cloth room apply here? Pose changes must be such that body parts do not pass through one-another for example. Also pose changes can be arried out only as fast as the simulation on your system allows. That should be a lot faster than the Poser Cloth Room but still slower than when doing only animations. Here is where mesh refinement could come in (not an active feature in MD yet): using a low-res version of the garment for the posing phase, offering speed, and hi-res for the final phase.
    • At some convenient point user moves back to the Pose Room to do his normal thing. The simulation runs in he background, like BulletPhisics Live Sim. It starts automatically when pose is changed.

    A reason to use Marvelous Designer is that it is to my knowledge the only format available now that clothing can be produced from a medium cost level tool. Sure it is not cheap but not a price level that canot be recovered from sale of products worth that name.
    The price of the garment items can be good because the versatility of the product is high. They can be realisticaly fitted to any morph of figure.

    The player window as desribed can be a win-win situation for content makers who can develop new markets; for Smith Micro who has new shine for Poser, and for Marvelous Designer because their product has found a new application.

    The MD format is binary and proprietary, not published. Poser constitution calls for open formats, and that is why the addon format would be most suitable.

    <steps down from soapbox and makes himself scarce while hell breaks loose, LOL!>



  • @F_Verbaas Just out of curiosity have you asked Marvelous Designer about a creating a plugin for Poser or DS? I'd like to know what they think, Truth is, especially from their licensing set up, they strike me as rather territorial and might see Poser as a threat or at least an encroachment on their territory.



  • @eclark1849
    Oh yes I did.
    I think it is unlikely they see Poser as a threat. They on purpose rely on applications like Poser for all animation. Requests to provide dials for avatar posing were turned down for that reason.
    They are complementary on purpose.



  • @F_Verbaas said in Some ideas for Clothroom version 2018:

    • effect of bias. The stiffness range of the fabric in the cloth room in practice is somewhat limited to cover the full range of fabrics and the effect of bias cut is not taken into account. The orentation of the grain of a fabric relative to the dominant load direction has a large influence on the drape of the fabric.
    • differentiation in properties in weft and warp direction. Cloth Room uses one figure only.

    Ironically the stretch and fold values are sent in with a U and V variant, however Poser seems to set these to the same values. I did (in PP2012) try setting them with python but it appeared not to work (might revisit, will let you know if I find anything)

    I would add for my part, expose the whole of the cloth sim via python, currently to set values (fold shear etc) you have to run a script for each object / dynamic group in your sim. I can select which sim I want but not which object / group to affect, really annoying)

    Would definitely like real elasticity, yes I know it does it to a certain extent but not really successfully.



  • I think simplifing the whole cloth room would be a good idea. Although dynamic clothes give the best results but most of the people prefer conforming clothes, because it's a lot easier to set up.
    I think spliting the clothroom in two sections like a player and a creation room would benefit the use of dynamic clothes. User could use the player section and content creators the other one.
    i encourage a library of preset clothsettings, even I, who have done thousands of simulations, am struggling with the settings. Sometimes I just alter a setting to get a better result, without even having a special fabric in mind.

    Speaking of special features, there are some that comes to my mind:

    • elastic, like said before, but also (really) stretching fabric like lycra, jersey and rubber.
    • buttoning and unbuttoning during the simulation, also unzipping and zipping. ;-)
    • immediate draping, it has to be much faster. From what I have seen with MD, it should be possible.
    • much more refinement, cloths are just too coarse at the moment, smaller folds and details.

    Best regards,

    Bopper.



  • @bopperthijs said in Some ideas for Clothroom version 2018:
    ..

    i encourage a library of preset clothsettings, even I, who have done thousands of simulations, am struggling with the settings. Sometimes I just alter a setting to get a better result, without even having a special fabric in mind.

    And, if they could implement that in a friendly way, vendors could sell Cloth Presets. They could include really customized presets in their dynamic clothing, sell "packs" of presets, play with settings and sell some really weird presets (anti-gravity-rubber-hurricane-suit... or something).

    Some sort of plug-and-play functionality will help to popularize the Cloth Room. "Power users" won't need it, necessarily, but even they would like to play with something like that. But, new users need to be happy with their purchase in every way that it's intended to be used and since the first-glance style of Poser is certain "button mash your way to art" with preloaded library content, it's a no-brainer to include that luxury and functionality in other parts of the program.

    Regardless, though, of any increase in ease-of-use of Poser, it's still a very, very, advanced program, capable of all sorts of nifty things that other programs just can't do as well.The New User either needs an easier way to enter into learning about more of Poser's features or they have to have a heck of a lot of willpower to go from "novice" to "Super User." No reason SM can't stack the deck in favor of the latter while STILL making significant technological improvements to keep their long-time Super-Users happy.



  • @morkonan said in Some ideas for Clothroom version 2018:

    @bopperthijs said in Some ideas for Clothroom version 2018:
    ..
    And, if they could implement that in a friendly way, vendors could sell Cloth Presets. They could include really customized presets in their dynamic clothing, sell "packs" of presets, play with settings and sell some really weird presets (anti-gravity-rubber-hurricane-suit... or something).

    Part of the problem is that presets only work for a specific mesh, if the mesh is more dense then what simed like satin might look more like rubber, to have presets they would have to be tied to a specific mesh / product, it's why I moved away from PhilC's presets long ago.

    Amanda



  • @amethystpendant said in Some ideas for Clothroom version 2018:

    Part of the problem is that presets only work for a specific mesh, if the mesh is more dense then what simed like satin might look more like rubber, to have presets they would have to be tied to a specific mesh / product, it's why I moved away from PhilC's presets long ago.

    Amanda

    It might prevent people from putting together generic sets for cloth presets to distribute, but if a specific group of settings works great for the cape I want to distribute, it would help allow me to distribute them together so the end user can get the cape to drape properly. Right now it seems like everything loads with the default setting.



  • @amethystpendant said in Some ideas for Clothroom version 2018:

    Part of the problem is that presets only work for a specific mesh, if the mesh is more dense then what simed like satin might look more like rubber, to have presets they would have to be tied to a specific mesh / product, it's why I moved away from PhilC's presets long ago.

    Amanda

    I'm not sure I follow you - A "preset" would only be a list of values for the available dynamics settings. It's not geometry specific.

    I do understand that not all topology is the same, though, and that can contribute to one preset's suitability for a material/mesh over another. So, if a preset chosen was "cotton" but the mesh wasn't suitable for that, being low density, then it wouldn't really "look like" cotton. BUT, I suppose it would be as "cottony" as that mesh could get. :)

    Hmm... We do have a good sub-d process available, though. I haven't checked, but will the Cloth Room work on a sub-d mesh, properly? (ie: Instead of using the base mesh for calcs, use the sub-d verts instead?) If so, wouldn't that help to solve the problem?



  • @morkonan Yes SubD does appear to be honoured in the sim, although as most of my meshes are quite dense I find that subd'ing the result is better than running the sim on the subd'd mesh



  • Presets representing a certain type of fabric can work only if the 'null state' of the mesh is known. Properties of a fabric are non-linear so it matters where you take the origin.
    also about 'null' states:

    • If the mesh has an angle between two facets, is this then a bending of the fabric, that is, should the sim try to bend it back, or is this a fold 'pressed' into the fabric or maybe is it a topstitch?
    • Likewise, if in the mesh the angles between the edges connecting to one vertex do not add up to 360 degrees (as they shoul for flat fabric) must the sim then try to correct this and add a radial stress component, or is it part of a preform 'steamed' in the fabric?

    The good thing in MD clothing definitons is that at least information about the unstrained state and the information about fold lines or flat press of ends of darts or other shaping is in the garment definition file. Non-linear properties are not (yet) there but I am pretty sure they are working on that.