Hivewire horse very laggy on posing



  • @morkonan said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    @nagra_00_ said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    This is a general issue i do have with conformers on any character. The horse is just an extrem example.

    In your General Preferences options, under Optimizations, try turning on (checking) "Multithreaded Bending." This can help. However, something that isn't in the manual - If you're Rendering In Background, working with/posing figures during rendering can interfere with the rendering process, since it's forcing the CPU to do double-labor. I generally keep it turned off, for that reason, but it can help with the calcs that Poser goes through when you pose figures/manipulate joints.

    Yep have that option set. But it makes no difference. BTW i have never noticed that poser used more than one CPU core for bending no matter of the setting in the preferences.

    No background rendering running, no other apps running as well. I guess with 24 CPU Cores it won't make a big difference anyway ;)



  • @nagra_00_

    I don't have the horse, but does it have a bunch of JCMs? For my part, on a PC with an i7, but only 8gig RAM and an old vidcard, I have no issues with figures that have a ton of customzed JCMs when it comes down to posing/manipulating them. So, I can't see me encountering something like that, even with a figure loaded with many more.

    What about weightmapping? Is it weightmapped or does it have cusomized maps for its joint zones?



  • @morkonan said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    The horse is WM and thats what makes me wonder why it behaves so poor. As said it bends smooth as long as no conformers are attached to it. Same for the old style V4, M4, etc they bend very smooth but by adding conformers to them bending gets slower and slower. Much slower than i would expect on my system.



  • @nagra_00_

    Ah!

    When you're using conforming clothing with V4/M4, has it also adopted/been converted for use with the customized weight map? (ie: Transfer weight-maps to clothing/etc) Could it be that a standard, non-weightmapped, not-quite-fully-compatible-with-custom-weight-map-rig figure conformed to one with custom weight maps is causing the problem?

    ATM, I don't use anything with weight-mapping, 'cause I'm stubborn and have resisted the switch.. But, I do know that weight-mapped figures sometimes, not always, used to need to have their clothing converted so it would work/work better, depending upon how the rigging was set up.



  • @morkonan

    I should clarify that the V4, M4 i use do not have any WM.



  • @nagra_00_

    Gotcha.

    Then, it's a somewhat chronic issue for you when posing figures that have conformed items.

    How are you posing them? Are you using the dials to move the joints or are you using them with I.K. and Limits/on and manipulating them with the Translate/Rotate tools? If the former, using dials, you obviously shouldn't have this issue. But, if the latter, then I can see that being an issue, depending on what you're "grabbing" with the manipulator. If you manipulate the joints by grabbing the conformed item and moving it with the manipulator, it has to translate that into moving the limb it's conformed to, instead. A sort of backwards-like process. (ie: To pose M4's arm, you grab the arm of the long-sleeved shirt that's conformed to him and then move it with the "Translate tool", which is generally only for x/y/z, but with I.K./Limits turned on, will "convert" itself to a general "move dis dere" tool, having to do a bunch of unnecessary calcs to establish the same movement that a simple spin of the "x rotate" dial would do.)

    Do you have this issue with two or more figures, naked, with nothing conformed to them in a scene? (With I.K./Limits set off, then experiment with them set to On.)

    Next up: What are your Preview render settings? (Screenshot?)



  • @morkonan said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    For posing i usually use the dials with I.K. and limits off.

    Here are my preview settings. I experimented a lot with them and this settings give the best performance on my system allowing me to move through big scenes with millions of polygons.

    0_1488914801600_Preview_settings.jpg



  • @nagra_00_

    We have the same settings and I, as well, have no issues with large scenes. Though, I can experience lag when translating joints/figures, it's not related to conforming issues, just an older system. (That was also struck by lighting, by the way, with flames an' everythin'... Blew out half the controller chips in it, too, fried any AMAPI drives, blew out the USB bus... BUT IT STILL WORKS, DRIVEN BY WILLPOWER!)

    Hmm... Weird. It's likely purely a Mac thing, I would think, something to do with your setup. And, I know doodly about Macs, unless you want to talk older stuff, like an Apple II or something. :)

    Does changing to PBuffer alleviate the joint translation issue with conforming items, even though it's going to slow down (or lower the quality of, at least) Preview-screen updates/display rendering? I do know that there are some OpenGl rendering differences between PC/Mac. Or, at least, used to be.

    What about vidcard settings and those related to 3D displaying or OpenGL? Have you looked at that? Again, I have no idea what a Mac considers to be "video card/hardware specific rendering settings." As far as I know, it works on "magic" and there's a "High, I'm a MAC" button for that, somewhere... :)



  • @nagra_00_ you said "big scenes" using millions of ploys. Is this before you even load in the horse? Gotta ask. If the scene is huge and tons of figures and props I would most definitely expect lag.



  • @ghostship said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    @nagra_00_ you said "big scenes" using millions of ploys. Is this before you even load in the horse? Gotta ask. If the scene is huge and tons of figures and props I would most definitely expect lag.

    Sure but as said this laggy bending is with the horse loaded into an empty scene.



  • On "lag" in general - Poser can handle bunches and bunches of polys. It's darn surprising how much it can handle. BUT, OpenGL and vidcards pushing it in the Preview Window can cough up blood with large number of transmapped polys... Bunches of large textures can also cause issues, too. For me, I always have a game-mentality for textures, trying to dupe as many as possible to prevent texture-load. Often, that's an easily manageable efficiency fix, considering Poser's capabilities within the Material Room and, in general, Material nodes/calcs being fairly "weightless" in terms of scene load.



  • @morkonan said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    @nagra_00_

    We have the same settings and I, as well, have no issues with large scenes. Though, I can experience lag when translating joints/figures, it's not related to conforming issues, just an older system. (That was also struck by lighting, by the way, with flames an' everythin'... Blew out half the controller chips in it, too, fried any AMAPI drives, blew out the USB bus... BUT IT STILL WORKS, DRIVEN BY WILLPOWER!)

    Hmm... Weird. It's likely purely a Mac thing, I would think, something to do with your setup. And, I know doodly about Macs, unless you want to talk older stuff, like an Apple II or something. :)

    Yep seems to be a Mac thing. I noticed the same behaviour on 3 different Macs. Two are regular working machines and one was a clean system with only Poser installed.

    Does changing to PBuffer alleviate the joint translation issue with conforming items, ...
    Nop PBuffer doesn't change that.

    What about vidcard settings and those related to 3D displaying or OpenGL?

    There are no user accessible vid card settings on a Mac not even with the Nvidia drivers. Its the 'it just works' approach ;-)



  • @morkonan said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    ... Bunches of large textures can also cause issues, too...

    You can control that for the preview with the mip maps setting. Large values give you higher texture quality in preview with the drawback of slower setup time.

    Damn i have to wait 5 minutes between postings...



  • @nagra_00_

    On textures: Mip map settings for an LOD approach are fine. But, Poser and virtually every other program will "still" have to load those textures up. Some textures can be pretty large and the weight can add up, even though the display weight can be significantly lowered using mipmapping for the Preview window. Just IMO, that is.

    Sorry about the "it just works" stuff... That's great, but it hampers one's ability to fiddle with stuff. :) At least, to easily fiddle with stuff. I assume there are some Mac Gurus out there that can do "anything" with a Mac. Unfortunately, they're probably all at the Apple Store, sniffing espresso and comparing their Doc Martins and North Face jackets... or whatever they do. :) For me, a simple PC dude, it's a cup of coffee, typing through cigarrette ashes covering my keyboard... Probably give the Apple Genius guys a heart attack. :)

    In the end, though, we all want the same thing - Pump out a decent result with Poser, no matter the platform.



  • @morkonan said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    Macs are based on Unix (BSD) and come with a Unix shell and all the neat Unix tools. So there is plenty of freedom to do what you like to do. Only system critical components like drivers are protected by default. But you can unprotect them if you want to… personally i don’t want to go back to my Linux times when it was necessary to write my own sound card drivers just because my sound card was not supported by the standard set…



  • @nagra_00_

    Waaaay back when, I messed around with Unix. (Had to do some stuff that involved it.) Eventually, I'll add a Linux-based machine, just because I'm getting sick of Microsoft and there's no darn way I'd allow a MAC into my home, even though I once used an Apple II. :)

    Macs also have a terrible time in the gaming market. And, though I only rarely play games anymore, I like knowing I'm still a member of the PC Master Race. :D

    Between here and all the other Poser-related forums, surely there are Mac users that have conquered the issues you're experiencing. (DAZ, Renderostiy, Hivewire, maybe even the social media sites or places like Deviantart groups?)



  • I wonder where the Mac users are. Nobody who wants to give a comment on the bending issue?

    Well, meanwhile i have installed the Win version of PP 2014 in a VirtualBox with Win 8.1. The Oracle VM is not the fastest buts its free.

    And here the result: HW horse bends smooth without conformers and bending gets slow with conformers attached. More or less the same as on native OS X… BUT a direct comparison does show that bending with the Win version of Poser running on the virtual machine is about 3 times faster than with the native OS X version of Poser!?!… all very strange.



  • @nagra_00_ said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    I wonder where the Mac users are. Nobody who wants to give a comment on the bending issue?

    Well, meanwhile i have installed the Win version of PP 2014 in a VirtualBox with Win 8.1. The Oracle VM is not the fastest buts its free.

    And here the result: HW horse bends smooth without conformers and bending gets slow with conformers attached. More or less the same as on native OS X… BUT a direct comparison does show that bending with the Win version of Poser running on the virtual machine is about 3 times faster than with the native OS X version of Poser!?!… all very strange.

    Mac user here.

    I threw this scene together this morning as a quick test.

    I don't seem to have the problem you describe with the HW Horse. Not with an empty scene, certainly.

    Poser didn't really start to complain about this scene until I started loading all the trees. At least, Poser was no more laggy than it usually is for me once I add a bunch of polys.

    Switching to Smooth Lined or Smooth Shaded mode speeds things up of course.

    4GHz i7
    16GB 1867MHz DDR3 RAM
    Radeon R9 M395X w/ 4GB

    0_1489593402932_HW Horse Test 1.jpg



  • @James_in_3D
    Thank you very much for your feedback. It gives me some hope that the issue i have could be solved somehow.

    First just to clarify. Its only the bending that is laggy on my machines. This has no effect on setting up a screen or any other objects within the screen. So when you select e.g. a leg of the horse and turn the bend dial you get a smooth bending of the leg?

    What all 3 machines i tested on have in common is:

    1. OS X with German as primary language
    2. a FusionDrive
    3. a BlueTooth keyboard
      The bad news to me is that i don’t see how any of the above points should have any negative effect on a Poser internal function like bending with attached conformers.


  • @nagra_00_ Ah, I see what you mean now. Sorry I misunderstood.

    I tried bending the horse's leg as you suggested using my scene above, and the horse does seem somewhat slower to pose than a human figure. Rather than smooth movement, it's as if the leg "clicks" into position every 2 or 3 degrees through its range of motion, rather than moving evenly and smoothly when I turn the dials.

    I added V4 to the scene above (with no clothes or hair or other props) and she doesn't move smoothly in that scene, though not as poorly as the horse. But with a scene full of various items, I would expect such behaviour.

    I then put the HW Horse (loaded with mane, tail, and fetlocks) into an empty scene with just the Poser construct and no other props. I bent one of the front legs the same way as before and it was still somewhat jerky, though not as bad as with other props in the scene.

    For comparison I loaded the old Poser 7 horse into an empty scene with just the Contsruct and it moved smoothly when bending it.

    So I went back and loaded the HW Horse again (by itself with just the construct), but this time I didn't load the mane, tail, or fetlocks. When I bent the legs it moved very smoothly.

    This leads me to believe the problem is the additional poly count of the horse's hair figures. The tail mesh seems especially dense, with many layers (7 or 8).

    I'm not sure if I've been entirely helpful, but maybe you can use this.

    For the sake of information, I have an SSD, and bluetooth keyboard and mouse.