Hivewire horse very laggy on posing



  • On "lag" in general - Poser can handle bunches and bunches of polys. It's darn surprising how much it can handle. BUT, OpenGL and vidcards pushing it in the Preview Window can cough up blood with large number of transmapped polys... Bunches of large textures can also cause issues, too. For me, I always have a game-mentality for textures, trying to dupe as many as possible to prevent texture-load. Often, that's an easily manageable efficiency fix, considering Poser's capabilities within the Material Room and, in general, Material nodes/calcs being fairly "weightless" in terms of scene load.



  • @morkonan said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    @nagra_00_

    We have the same settings and I, as well, have no issues with large scenes. Though, I can experience lag when translating joints/figures, it's not related to conforming issues, just an older system. (That was also struck by lighting, by the way, with flames an' everythin'... Blew out half the controller chips in it, too, fried any AMAPI drives, blew out the USB bus... BUT IT STILL WORKS, DRIVEN BY WILLPOWER!)

    Hmm... Weird. It's likely purely a Mac thing, I would think, something to do with your setup. And, I know doodly about Macs, unless you want to talk older stuff, like an Apple II or something. :)

    Yep seems to be a Mac thing. I noticed the same behaviour on 3 different Macs. Two are regular working machines and one was a clean system with only Poser installed.

    Does changing to PBuffer alleviate the joint translation issue with conforming items, ...
    Nop PBuffer doesn't change that.

    What about vidcard settings and those related to 3D displaying or OpenGL?

    There are no user accessible vid card settings on a Mac not even with the Nvidia drivers. Its the 'it just works' approach ;-)



  • @morkonan said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    ... Bunches of large textures can also cause issues, too...

    You can control that for the preview with the mip maps setting. Large values give you higher texture quality in preview with the drawback of slower setup time.

    Damn i have to wait 5 minutes between postings...



  • @nagra_00_

    On textures: Mip map settings for an LOD approach are fine. But, Poser and virtually every other program will "still" have to load those textures up. Some textures can be pretty large and the weight can add up, even though the display weight can be significantly lowered using mipmapping for the Preview window. Just IMO, that is.

    Sorry about the "it just works" stuff... That's great, but it hampers one's ability to fiddle with stuff. :) At least, to easily fiddle with stuff. I assume there are some Mac Gurus out there that can do "anything" with a Mac. Unfortunately, they're probably all at the Apple Store, sniffing espresso and comparing their Doc Martins and North Face jackets... or whatever they do. :) For me, a simple PC dude, it's a cup of coffee, typing through cigarrette ashes covering my keyboard... Probably give the Apple Genius guys a heart attack. :)

    In the end, though, we all want the same thing - Pump out a decent result with Poser, no matter the platform.



  • @morkonan said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    Macs are based on Unix (BSD) and come with a Unix shell and all the neat Unix tools. So there is plenty of freedom to do what you like to do. Only system critical components like drivers are protected by default. But you can unprotect them if you want to… personally i don’t want to go back to my Linux times when it was necessary to write my own sound card drivers just because my sound card was not supported by the standard set…



  • @nagra_00_

    Waaaay back when, I messed around with Unix. (Had to do some stuff that involved it.) Eventually, I'll add a Linux-based machine, just because I'm getting sick of Microsoft and there's no darn way I'd allow a MAC into my home, even though I once used an Apple II. :)

    Macs also have a terrible time in the gaming market. And, though I only rarely play games anymore, I like knowing I'm still a member of the PC Master Race. :D

    Between here and all the other Poser-related forums, surely there are Mac users that have conquered the issues you're experiencing. (DAZ, Renderostiy, Hivewire, maybe even the social media sites or places like Deviantart groups?)



  • I wonder where the Mac users are. Nobody who wants to give a comment on the bending issue?

    Well, meanwhile i have installed the Win version of PP 2014 in a VirtualBox with Win 8.1. The Oracle VM is not the fastest buts its free.

    And here the result: HW horse bends smooth without conformers and bending gets slow with conformers attached. More or less the same as on native OS X… BUT a direct comparison does show that bending with the Win version of Poser running on the virtual machine is about 3 times faster than with the native OS X version of Poser!?!… all very strange.



  • @nagra_00_ said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    I wonder where the Mac users are. Nobody who wants to give a comment on the bending issue?

    Well, meanwhile i have installed the Win version of PP 2014 in a VirtualBox with Win 8.1. The Oracle VM is not the fastest buts its free.

    And here the result: HW horse bends smooth without conformers and bending gets slow with conformers attached. More or less the same as on native OS X… BUT a direct comparison does show that bending with the Win version of Poser running on the virtual machine is about 3 times faster than with the native OS X version of Poser!?!… all very strange.

    Mac user here.

    I threw this scene together this morning as a quick test.

    I don't seem to have the problem you describe with the HW Horse. Not with an empty scene, certainly.

    Poser didn't really start to complain about this scene until I started loading all the trees. At least, Poser was no more laggy than it usually is for me once I add a bunch of polys.

    Switching to Smooth Lined or Smooth Shaded mode speeds things up of course.

    4GHz i7
    16GB 1867MHz DDR3 RAM
    Radeon R9 M395X w/ 4GB

    0_1489593402932_HW Horse Test 1.jpg



  • @James_in_3D
    Thank you very much for your feedback. It gives me some hope that the issue i have could be solved somehow.

    First just to clarify. Its only the bending that is laggy on my machines. This has no effect on setting up a screen or any other objects within the screen. So when you select e.g. a leg of the horse and turn the bend dial you get a smooth bending of the leg?

    What all 3 machines i tested on have in common is:

    1. OS X with German as primary language
    2. a FusionDrive
    3. a BlueTooth keyboard
      The bad news to me is that i don’t see how any of the above points should have any negative effect on a Poser internal function like bending with attached conformers.


  • @nagra_00_ Ah, I see what you mean now. Sorry I misunderstood.

    I tried bending the horse's leg as you suggested using my scene above, and the horse does seem somewhat slower to pose than a human figure. Rather than smooth movement, it's as if the leg "clicks" into position every 2 or 3 degrees through its range of motion, rather than moving evenly and smoothly when I turn the dials.

    I added V4 to the scene above (with no clothes or hair or other props) and she doesn't move smoothly in that scene, though not as poorly as the horse. But with a scene full of various items, I would expect such behaviour.

    I then put the HW Horse (loaded with mane, tail, and fetlocks) into an empty scene with just the Poser construct and no other props. I bent one of the front legs the same way as before and it was still somewhat jerky, though not as bad as with other props in the scene.

    For comparison I loaded the old Poser 7 horse into an empty scene with just the Contsruct and it moved smoothly when bending it.

    So I went back and loaded the HW Horse again (by itself with just the construct), but this time I didn't load the mane, tail, or fetlocks. When I bent the legs it moved very smoothly.

    This leads me to believe the problem is the additional poly count of the horse's hair figures. The tail mesh seems especially dense, with many layers (7 or 8).

    I'm not sure if I've been entirely helpful, but maybe you can use this.

    For the sake of information, I have an SSD, and bluetooth keyboard and mouse.



  • @James_in_3D said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    This leads me to believe the problem is the additional poly count of the horse's hair figures. The tail mesh seems especially dense, with many layers (7 or 8).

    No its not the poly count. I proved that already by running the Win version of PosePro 2014 within Oracels VirtualBox. Even though the camera positioning is ultra laggy due to Sreed mode going through the emulated graphics device of the virtual machine. The bending of the horse legs is still 2-3 times faster than with the native OS X version of PoserPro 2014 using OpenGL.

    And to make things even worse: I had a lengthy discussion with tech support regarding this issue some time ago and they insisted that they can not reproduce any slowdowns on any of their Macs.



  • @nagra_00_ I don't have a Windows box anymore, but I do have PP2014.

    I used PP2014 and repeated my tests as above.

    I got the same results as before: when the HW Horse hair figures are loaded and conformed to the HW Horse, moving/bending/posing the horse becomes extremely laggy. About 2-3 "clicks" of movement per second. Same as in PP11.

    Without the HW Horse hair loaded, the horse poses perfectly smoothly.

    Logically, on my system, and I am only speaking for myself, the issue with the slowdown is the high polycount. For me, this isn't unusual behaviour. If I load V4, give her a full set of clothing, plus hair...her movements slow down, too. But to me this posing slowdown seems to to be logical behaviour. High polycount = lag. I don't think there's anything wrong with the HW Horse.

    It is however rather weird that things are faster for you in PP2014 in Windows -- especially running in VirtualBox. That is odd. One would think it should be slower.

    It is also strange that tech support found no slowdown on their Mac systems. I find that hard to believe. I'm not doubting you @nagra_00_, I'm questioning their results. They must have some pretty super amazing Macs running, I guess!



  • Sorry, I don't have a Mac. And I haven't used the HW horse in poser yet but I know in DS that it's the hair that can slow things down, I just hide the Mane/Tail/Fetlocks and it makes a big difference.

    You could ask over at the HiveWire forums, they are all a nice bunch of people happy to help.



  • @nagra_00_ said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    And to make things even worse: I had a lengthy discussion with tech support regarding this issue some time ago and they insisted that they can not reproduce any slowdowns on any of their Macs.

    @nagra_00_: I realize this is an old thread, but I found it b/c I've been having precisely the same problem.

    I wanted to create a scene with two of my characters (both based on the Sasha-16 WM version of V4) riding their horses (both variations on the HiveWire Horse) on a simple trail. I knew Poser would slow to a crawl if I tried to set all of that up in a single scene file. So instead I set up each V4 and each horse in its own scene file, with all the clothes/tack and hair it needed, and I even went ahead and did as much posing as I could. I then combined each horse + rider pair in its own scene file to fine-tune the posing, after which I switched all trans mapped items to wireframe.

    So I thought it would be a fairly simple matter to just load the trail setting (2nd World's Park & Trails), load each horse/rider pair, and translate them into position. But for some reason the riders came in just slightly out of position, and in ways that were essential to the scene (their hands had moved above the reins and their feet through the stirrups).

    I knew Poser would probably start getting laggy as I tried to fix the arm and hand poses (which I always do using parameter dials only, with IK turned off). But by the time I'd adjusted one figure's hands, the system had become so slow that the parameter dials just stopped turning. So I had to quit Poser, restart, and try again.

    My Mac isn't as powerful as yours, which must be a desktop, but it's a top of the line 2017 MacBook Pro that I bought specifically in the hopes that Poser would be faster on it than on my 2013 model -- as I'm no stranger to this lagging performance problem. So at least this is another Mac user who can replicate your experience!


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Check :
    => Set render engine to Preview or FireFly. (in the Render settings menu)
    Then pose.

    Only select the SuperFly render engine when ready to render.
    There seems to be a confirmed UI slow-down with the SuperFly render engine selected and it is texture handling related.



  • @vilters said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    Check :
    => Set render engine to Preview or FireFly. (in the Render settings menu)
    Then pose.

    Only select the SuperFly render engine when ready to render.
    There seems to be a confirmed UI slow-down with the SuperFly render engine selected and it is texture handling related.

    I was just going to post I've never seen this with the HiveWire Horse, but you just confirmed why. I never choose SuperFly until I'm actually ready to render.



  • Just a question for those experiencing "laggy" posing of joints - Have you used the "CPU Assisted Bending" option in the Preferences menu? (Or, is that available in the Mac version?)

    Be warned, this can bork up rendering in my experience, so use it when you're setting things up, but turn it off before rendering, else it can conflict with itself.. for some reason. (I tend to "render in background" so that could be the issue, since it's trying to reserve some of the power for the CPU-assist.)



  • @vilters said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    => Set render engine to Preview or FireFly. (in the Render settings menu)

    I don't use SuperFly for anything (for a variety of reasons). So I only render in Firefly.

    In the Preview settings, I have hardware shading, shadows, anti-aliasing, and mip-maps all turned OFF, with transparency limited to 90% and texture resolution at 512k.

    @morkonan: I've had the laggy problem with "multi-threaded bending" ON as well as OFF in the Preferences. I think that's what you're referring to? Having it ON seems to "break" the HW Horse's tail, oddly enough.

    Poser slows down for me after I've had it open a few hours, no matter what, or if I try to work with more than 2-3 figures (V4/M4) in a scene. But it's particularly bad when I add in the HiveWire Horse, which is a bummer b/c I had wanted two of my graphic novel characters to go on regular trail rides. As a lifelong horse person myself, I appreciate the attention to detail that went into modeling the HW Horse, but I kinda wonder if it's meant to be used on its own, for "wild mane" fantasy shots, rather than as a horse for characters to ride.



  • @perpetualrevision I've done multiple person + Hivewire horse and never had this lag issue. But, I'm on Windows, so perhaps that's the difference. Below are both Superfly renders.

    0_1512045053112_EquestrianDenim.jpg

    0_1512045073962_ReleaseImage.jpg



  • @Glitterati3D said in Hivewire horse very laggy on posing:

    I've done multiple person + Hivewire horse and never had this lag issue. But, I'm on Windows, so perhaps that's the difference. Below are both Superfly renders.

    I think most of the people who've had trouble posing the HW Horse with tack and riders in the scene have been on Macs, so perhaps the problem is due to some aspect of Poser's memory management on the Mac OS? I use a MacBook Pro rather than a desktop machine, so perhaps that's also a factor.

    Other factors that might produce different experiences include Preview settings and how users prefer to work while in the Pose room. I've tried to minimize the performance impact of textures through various Preview settings, and I try to dial in poses and expressions for each character (human or equine) in its own scene file, before I bring everything together. But it's inevitable that I'll want to spend some time playing around with different pose and expression dials once I see everything together, and I'll most likely want to try different combinations of poses and expressions on separate keyframes. In other words, I might spend a lot more time fiddling with parameter dials than other users.

    My eventual goal is to produce series of shots to use in a graphic novel, so if I want two characters to go on a trail ride, then I'll probably need at least 6-7 shots from various angles to go along with the dialogue. But right now, when I have two V4 riders and two HW horses in a scene (w/ various items set to wireframe), Poser slows down to the point that it takes ages for any parameter dial I turn to have an effect. That's frustrating enough when it comes to finding the right expression for a single shot, but it would quickly become unbearable if I was trying to get the variety of expressions and poses I'd need for a series of shots.

    I don't have any performance problems when it comes to actual renders, which I do in Firefly in part b/c I'm going for a stylized (and not photo-realistic) look. It's the posing that's the problem.

    Here's a draft render of what was going to be the first in a series of trail riding shots, until the parameter dial slow-downs drove me too nuts to continue!
    0_1512260634582_Sara+Cully-Carmen+Neasa-TrailRide-Draft2.jpg

    @Glitterati3D: Great expression on the rider taking the horse over a fence! She looks as surprised as I would be to find that it's possible to jump in a dressage saddle! :-)