Project e



  • @fverbaas said in Project e:

    Is there an ethnic variation in body shapes also?

    I think that it's a general misconception that there are ethnic differences in body shapes.
    I mean, Chinese or Japanese women don't have a horizontal "slit", people in "Plain Awful" in the Andes don't have cubic breasts or dicks *1, and older black women don't always have huge fat behinds - we have enough "Babushkas" here which could "outfat" any African women, anytime :D

    So I think there's no necessity for specific "ethnic" body shapes because there aren't any "special".

    If I look what can be done with body morphing and scaling you can already create small or tall Asians, fat or slim Russians, square Siberians (or Eskimos if you prefer), lean Arabs, chubby Hindus, even Pygmea or whatever else you fancy.

    The big and obvious difference is in the face, and that's where ethnic morphs should focus. Plus some realistic skin maps which, as already mentioned, don't look like a "tinted" European.

    Karina

    Footnote 1:
    You can only understand this joke if you're a fan of Carl Barks' "Donald Duck" stories...



  • @karina
    The differences are not as explicit as you mention.

    alt text

    From here: https://design.tutsplus.com/articles/human-anatomy-fundamentals-advanced-body-proportions--vector-19869

    Quote:
    This is why in Western societies we often have the impression Japanese women look younger than they are: in the majority of depictions that we’re exposed to their hips remain narrower even into adulthood than those of European women, thus confusing an important visual clue. If we draw a Japanese woman with the same body type as our "generic" European woman (including wider hips), we will wonder why she looks more European than Asian.



  • @karina said in Project e:

    @fverbaas said in Project e:

    Is there an ethnic variation in body shapes also?

    I think that it's a general misconception that there are ethnic differences in body shapes.
    I mean, Chinese or Japanese women don't have a horizontal "slit", people in "Plain Awful" in the Andes don't have cubic breasts or dicks *1, and older black women don't always have huge fat behinds - we have enough "Babushkas" here which could "outfat" any African women, anytime :D

    So I think there's no necessity for specific "ethnic" body shapes because there aren't any "special".

    If I look what can be done with body morphing and scaling you can already create small or tall Asians, fat or slim Russians, square Siberians (or Eskimos if you prefer), lean Arabs, chubby Hindus, even Pygmea or whatever else you fancy.

    The big and obvious difference is in the face, and that's where ethnic morphs should focus. Plus some realistic skin maps which, as already mentioned, don't look like a "tinted" European.

    Karina

    Footnote 1:
    You can only understand this joke if you're a fan of Carl Barks' "Donald Duck" stories...

    I'd have to disagree, and it's not a matter of stereotyping or fetishizing but more probably adaptation. Africans tend to have a longer leg to torso ratio than caucasians. Asians tend to have a shorter leg to torso ratio. Caucasians females tend to gain weight on the hips, African females tend to gain the weight in the rear of the behind. I've read that Caucasians have more torso and body hair to adapt to colder weather whereas Africans have smaller torsos to expend heat.

    Obviously there is variation within ethnicities but there is still a tendency/basis/default physically, and of course, there are no "pure" races. I typically shorten the torso of Poser figures because they seem abnormally long for my African characters.

    Do we need "ethnic" bodies? I don't think so, just the adjustments for the user to modify for themselves. One reason ManuelBastioniLab for Blender is so exciting to me. He has built the ethnic variations into the basis of the software.

    By the way, have you ever noticed the rather large overall width of the nose and roundness of nostril and tip of many asian people? Similar in a way to that of Africans. I'm not sure I'm seeing that here.



  • Thank for the interesting link fverbaas!
    I didn't know about all those details before, so it might be a great guide for future character creators.

    However (and that was the main point in my previous post):

    You can already achieve "most" of these body shapes with the standard body shape morphs that come with the figure (I can do this with SASHA by only using the standard DAZ "Morphs++" and the additional SASHA morphs and dials anytime)

    But that wasn't the point:
    As you know each morph requires a horrible amount of data which makes the figure "heavy", load wise.
    Each morph - whether you use it or not - is eating your RAM at an alarming rate.

    So why add special "ethnic" body shapes (which, by your diagrams, would span about half of the body, so in case of V4 would mean about 35.000 vertices "for each single bloody morph!") if you can achieve similar results by spinning a few dials for morphs that already come with the figure?

    My suggestion:

    • Custom ethnical morphs for the face (mandatory)
    • body shapes as dial value injections using what is available.

    This should help to keep memory useage down to the minimum.

    And with some hair figures which exceed 200 MB already RAM useage isn't a negligible point anymore.


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    @karina said in Project e:

    we have enough "Babushkas" here

    Having Polish ancestry* (paternal grandmother), I think of a "babushka" as a headscarf worn on the head. I chuckled because I'd never heard of it in the context you mention. LOL

    *One of my "Heinz 57 varieties of ancestry ... also Italian, German, Colonial New England, other Eastern European, English, Irish, Scottish. Maybe I should check "All of the above."



  • @fverbaas Good info in the illustration and page. Yeah, observation is important.



  • @Deecey:

    You're right. In Russian, Ukrainian and Polish "Babushka" means "Grandmother", without any prejudice.

    However today it also became a synonym for "Old ladies weighing way over 150 kilograms".
    In Ukraine they are most seen selling shashlik or kvas in mobile shops by the roadside. :D

    Of course this is an exaggerated "meme" and not true all the time.
    But just like in America, where everybody living in a trailer car is prejudiced as "redneck" and "trailer trash", we have our prejudices too.
    And all those are as wrong as anything.

    But this is moving OT, so let's stop now...

    Wszystko co najlepsze!

    Karina



  • Whether a change is achieved through morphs or through transformations is immaterial. Sure you can dial ethnic body shape variations in each time by transformations. Sure it is not absolutely necessary to have dials for more/less African body or more/less Asian body.
    I was just wondering.



  • Thank you everyone for the compliments and nice remarks! Very much appreciated!

    @vilters said in Project e:

    Remains : The height question.
    Asians are short while Africans vary a LOT in height. Europeans are usually taller then average.

    Yep height won't be a problem. Although its not there yet, she will have a dial allowing you to set the height accurately in METRIC UNITS... oops did I just say that out loud? Lol I'll try imperial too.

    @fverbaas said in Project e:

    @erogenesis
    Is there an ethnic variation in body shapes also?

    Not yet, but will have.

    @vilters said in Project e:

    @erogenesis
    Do the bodies ethnic variations match the faces, or is it faces only?

    I was planning on providing presets that control other morphs and scales to replicate what @fverbaas posted (btw thanks for that!). Indeed like @karina says I'm not going to provide FBMs of these bodytypes but rather presets of combinations of morphs (or PBMs), as it is less taxing on the RAM... that said I'll need the space for the other thousands of morphs I will want to make available lol... if I have the time. The only real full total body morphs I will provide would perhaps be general fat, skinny, pudge and musclular ones etc, but even those will be compartmentalized to some degree. The rest will be more like presets combining several morphs.

    @karina said in Project e:

    ...and older black women don't always have huge fat behinds - we have enough "Babushkas" here which could "outfat" any African women, anytime :D

    lol I wouldn't know about 'babushkas', but in Malawi we have 'matofotofos' and they are shamelessly fat. Being fat is like a cultural thing in Malawi. If you're a lady packing kilos and you have a serving table for an ass, you're hot stuff there, you'll get all the men running after you. You will get marriage proposals! I knew this belgian girl once who was fairly obese, and she was approached almost twice a day by Malawian men. If you get told there that you're 'nice and fat', that's a serious compliment. Also, if any local Malawian says to you: "you look healthy", it basically means you've put on weight. Those times are changing slowly though, with the younger generations, as they're becoming more and more aware of the risks of being overweight.

    But speaking of which, I came across a wikipedia article about a physiological trait among certain african tribes that gives them this extreme lumbar lordosis and I've definitely seen this in Malawian women too, with a seriously exaggerated curve of the lower spine and the resulting protruding buttocks. I'm just not sure if its actually 'lordosis' or if its a genetic trait or caused by environmental / cultural factors.

    BTW how fascinating about african types having longer shins, I never knew that, no wonder they run like the wind. In evolution all sprinters have longer shins as compared to thighs, as opposed to endurance runners that have even length legs. I think that could be why africans are better with sprints and caucasians better at marathons, although a lot of africans are also winning those too.

    PS: there ethnic bases are also combinations of various morphs, like the Yamato girl is combined with eye base forward, epicanthic fold down, nose flat, full lips, wide jaw etc... and indeed they're just as a base to you can include them in your own combinations. The materials / textures will also match these bases and can also provide a starting point for making your own mats.



  • @dcrosby said in Project e:

    By the way, have you ever noticed the rather large overall width of the nose and roundness of nostril and tip of many asian people? Similar in a way to that of Africans. I'm not sure I'm seeing that here.

    yeah the japanese nose there is not entirely representative of the yamato people as they're slightly more round and have a more S-shape extending from the tip along the nostril. I'll get there.



  • getting there...!
    more details soon.

    2_1510943180393_project_e smiling 1.jpg
    0_1510943180375_project_e smiling 5.jpg

    0_1510943375907_Aino Lady 1.jpg



  • @erogenesis Looking great! My only suggestion is to perhaps increase the thickness of her tongue a little bit to give it more form and body.



  • @rtamesis cheers. there will be an option for that :)

    (although it might look thin in that pic because its curved inwards there, but its fairly think already)



  • On difference in racial body types:

    There are, indeed, phenotypical differences in body type, fat distribution, limb/torso ratios, sitting height trunk ratios, etc...

    However, in most cosmopolitan areas, these differences begin to be less severe. A person who appears to be of "Asian", "African" or "Caucasian" ancestry at first glance in these areas will generally have a genotypical history of many different races. A "white" person can have several "black" ancestors and one couldn't tell by measuring their skull for bumps or something like that... Similarly, it's rare to find everyone who has obvious "Nordic" descent, who has a long family history of living in the US, to consistently be over 6 feet tall. (Darn big Norwegians... No wonder everyone in the "Vikings" show seem like giants. :) Uh, they're Norwegian, right? /scratches head Big, anyway.)

    There are surprisingly few resources that accurately provide measurement information in formats other than the "aggregate." One can easily find, for instance, body measurement averages for age, basic body build, etc.

    (Research Note: There are two most cited studies on human body variability in racial populations, one for, I think, Sweden... ish? and the other an African study. In the US, the most cited and largest collection of broad-spectrum data was commissioned by none other than the US DoT for use in automobile passenger safety. Of them all, it contains some of the broadest data on age-related differences, too, which there is very little information about. There are at least two other studies conducted for military design purposes, as well, but the data isn't easy to get. (Resulted in some really funny "let's build this to average proportion" problems in combat-vehicle design, too. ie: It was stupid and didn't work. :) Anyway, besides the military ones, all of the ones mentioned above can be accessed, one way or another, online as they're "gubbermint" studies and generally openly published. There are two major online sources for general body differences, that I know of, that are freely accessible. One uses several databases, IIRC, and is hosted by a transportation safety studies department at some university, the other is one that is hosted in Japan, IIRC. Both are focused on 3d, the former allowing the user to input variables to magically generate a human figure (.stl format/tris) and the other for use in CAD software, can't remember the format.)

    But, there is no such thing as an "average" sized human or even one that conforms to "average" proportions. You can no more "average" an individual's body measurements than you can their personality. A "believable" figure is just like every single person we see on the street - NOT AVERAGE.

    Humans are one of the few species that have such a wide variety of immediately noticeable phenotypical differences. Why? It's not purely "evolutionary" due to Oog being a better hunter and Oogette being able to pump out little Oooglets more better. Sex selection, isolation, and, more recently, it appears that some ideas that Lamarck had could actually turn out to be... true.

    What you "are" is much more complicated than what you "think you are." :)

    /sigh

    TLDR: The only "average" 3D model that should exist is a "base model" that is capable of accepting the very wide range of human phenotypical differences we see represented in the people we meet every_single_day. If anyone doubts this, I challenge them to go to the grocery store, right now ('Cause that's where they keep baked goods and pizza, so why not?) and actually "look" at the people who are there. Look at them with a discriminating eye and then come home, open up Poser, and just try to make two figures of the sorts of people you saw at the grocery store, but using the exact same base figure. (It will be frustrating, so pick up doughnuts and pizza before you leave the store.)

    On the faces:

    Nice! And, since erogenesis knows I think so highly of his project he will take my criticism well... :)

    Noses: These are one of the most distinctive traits of an individual's face. They're practically a "meme" and every caricature artist starts there. (Uh, 'cause I said so, I dunno... lolz) Again, but from home, let's find five people in a google search of "people" that have the same nose. It ain't gonna happen. The faces above have remarkably similar nose structure. Bridge width is fairly identical, slope, the ratio between the nostril size and the rest of the nose, similar "relative" depth of all structures of the nose, etc.. For an individual face, viewed alone, not a big deal. (To some.) But, taken in concert, one look tells everyone it's the same model, same face, just someone morphed cheekbones and fatty parts around the mouth.

    BUT, there is one huge problem that has to be acknowledged - Because of the geometry and the necessity that face morphs/rigging bring to "expressions", entirely realistic, different, noses are... darn hard to make "look good" for a figure intended to be a "base figure." There's a reason why game devs don't save resources by chucking their custom figure heads out the window in favor of just using a base mesh for everything. (Some do, depending on the animation requirements/scheme.)

    I'm looking at five different faces, right now. It's likely there are three, maybe four, different ethnological backgrounds I'm looking at. There are two-and-a-half phenotypical "pop-sci-morphic" bodytypes represented. And, only two share remotely similar limb/trunk ratios and they're not even of the same sex. Everyone is a different height, different fat composition, different basic bone structure (that's a very dynamic thing), etc..

    In short - I could, with a bit of work, successfully create a custom "morph" for each that would be "acceptable" in appearance. But, it'd animate like one of those half-dead slugs that crawled into a beer and was chewed on by a dyslexic cat. (Most cats are dyslexic, that's why they don't buy many books.)

    The point: I understand many of the difficulties in customized morphs with a generic mesh. Just hit the main facial recognition points with a fine brush, where you can: eye distance ratios, all directions, nose width and nostril width ratio (Important for that "truly individual look" IMO ) as well as depth, septum to lip distance, mouth width and bottom lip height above chin, jaw angle/width, face depth (flatness), cheek depth/prominance, fat beneath cheek/around mouth, done..

    PS - As soon as this hits the shelves, I plan on morphing the heck out of it... It'll be my freebie contribution to your efforts. (I suck at texturing, so won't be rushing off to 3d.sk.) Bunches of morphs, is my plan to help. (Some clothes and such, too, no worries. All freebies. Let's just hope them feets is set up so I don't have to start taking medication if I decide to make some shoes for her.. ;) I hate... shoes.)

    PPS - KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK! You're doing awesome stuffs!



  • So this is happening then?



  • @morkonan said in Project e:

    On difference in racial body types:

    Something tells me you might like what 'e' stands for :D

    Yes, its entirely impossible to represent the entire female human race with just one figure... unless you take to zBrush and rigging yourself. Never-the-less PE will get you close to at least 50% of the female population. There will be a lot of generalization and I'll definitely miss vital details because replicating an entire real human is something that will even make experts in anatomy break a cold sweat. This is where addons, updates and other vendor's work will come in... I hope.

    I was planning on making a 'fat rig' before release but I doubt I will have time for that. It will have to be an addon perhaps. The fat rig is basically a fat dial that makes the lady bigger and bigger and the JCMs will be replaced in the same ratio to accommodate for the differing flesh dynamics.

    I just hope that people will understand that PE is mainly a base character from which much can be built (and perhaps future versions can spring off). Obviously I'll kick off this adventure with a stupid amount of options, but the more specific one's requirements will be, the more I urge that individual to either become friends with good vendors, or buy zbrush themselves.

    One thing is for sure, Pixar could learn a thing or two from the DS/Poserverse when it comes to variability and flexibility lol!

    PPS - KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK! You're doing awesome stuffs!

    cheers! expect an email soon ;)

    @rokketman said in Project e:

    So this is happening then?

    Totally, I'm pushing for xmas.



  • @erogenesis said in Project e:

    @rokketman said in Project e:

    So this is happening then?

    Totally, I'm pushing for xmas.

    EXCELLENT!! ~grin~



  • @erogenesis That would make a most excellent present to myself!


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    @erogenesis Totally, I'm pushing for xmas. sounds awesome to me .:) Have already a few nice jewels for her in mind.



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