Sales stats



  • Do any of the big sites release stats on which figures sell the most? Is it worth creating for Genesis 3, or should I stick to G2? How much life is left in M4/G4 (I still use them primarily but how many others still do?)

    I suspect that DAZ will never release stats like these even though it would help vendors to create more of the stuff that people actually want to buy for because it would undermine their desire to push their latest models, and if this is the case, it's very short sighted - they could sell what people want to buy, rather than forcing people to buy what they want to sell.

    Personally I get sick to death of having to rebuy everything each time a new figure comes out. I didn't even look at Genesis 1 or 2, and have only begun looking at Genesis 3 for commercial reasons.



  • No statistical data from the sites, just the usual marketing 'best selling item' and 'so many bazzillion users'..

    Which figure you support would come down to a couple of things -
    how well you know Poser and/or daz studio -
    and which figures you prefer to support.

    V4 will get you mostly Poser user sales - will they be great sales - probably not unless the item has never been made before and is totally amazing.
    Sadly M4 probably wouldn't make you much money these days.
    Dawn by Hivewire would be the next current Poser female option for content sales - would you make money - no idea ?

    If you are going to sell content with Daz then selling for the newest figure is always going to:

    1. be more likely to get your item into the store
    2. get you the most sales on the item

    Genesis 3 would get you more sales per item than a V4 item but you're pretty much going to be Daz Studio only.
    Daz, Renderosity, Hivewire, CGBytes all have Daz Studio items in their Stores



  • I would think arguments like your cut in the price the clients pays and competition also count.
    One site can sell twice the volume of another site, but if your share is only one third, you still end up with a loss.



  • @matb said in Sales stats:

    Do any of the big sites release stats on which figures sell the most?

    Not that I know of, why would they?
    Yes some sites have vendor of the month, year, etc.
    But that doesn't tell the whole story.

    Is it worth creating for Genesis 3, or should I stick to G2?

    Good content will sell. If it didn't, no one else would make it either.
    A vendors customer base has a lot to do with it as well.

    How much life is left in M4/G4 (I still use them primarily but how many others still do?)

    It depends on the user.
    It depends on who you ask.
    If they have tons of V4 content and know Poser well, they might not need to buy much.
    If they use Studio and have money to spend, and just have to have the latest and greatest, well, there's that...
    So nailing down who uses what isn't always so cut and dry.
    I don't use V4 or Genesis much at all. So I would skew any poll aimed at showing people did.
    See what I mean? I'm sure I am not alone in that either.
    Like any poll, the results are based on who you ask.

    I suspect that DAZ will never release stats like these even though it would help vendors to create more of the stuff that people actually want to buy for because it would undermine their desire to push their latest models, and if this is the case, it's very short sighted - they could sell what people want to buy, rather than forcing people to buy what they want to sell.

    Why would DAZ release numbers like this to begin with?
    And selling what people wants, well, what user or base?
    Every store forces you to either buy what they sell, or shop somewhere else.
    That's nothing new.
    Vendors create what they want too, what they are good at, etc.
    They learn from experience what their user base buys. Note I said their user base, not a poll or opinion on it.

    Personally I get sick to death of having to re buy everything each time a new figure comes out.

    That is what drives the market to begin with, new figures, new content.
    If your using Poser Pro and know the program, you don't have to re buy anything if you don't want too.
    You can say the same thing about Studio users as well.
    Both programs have the base tools for refitting, etc.
    Throw users into the mix that use other 3D programs, know how to model, etc.
    Well, they know how to modify or make what they want anyway.

    The option to re buy things is nothing more than vendors seeing that many won't do that.
    They create similar content that sells. Based on their own sales, not someone else's.

    People have asked these questions for years, and there are no easy one fit answers.
    What answers it best to a vendor, is their own sales.
    Not someone else's, or opinions on it.



  • All I can say is on Facebook recently, there's a well known, well followed vendor making stuff for Genesis3 and selling at DAZ who is quitting to get a full time job, saying she can't live on the sales.

    So there's that..........


  • Poser Ambassadors

    I think it is fair to say that the golden days are over.
    Saturation is all over the place.
    Both apps can refurbish older content and regenerate it to newer uses.

    "Content" as we knew it in the past is not so figure dependent any more.

    Take item "X" for figure "Y" => Take it through Blender to "fit" over another figure, then chase it through the fitting room to get the rig, finetune with the morph brush if required, and done.
    Zing-zang the textures through Gimp or Krita, and it's as good as "new". LOL. (if it ever was "old" in the first place.)

    Those support "content manipulation tools" are free for everybody.
    Tja, it takes time and there is a learning curve but hey?
    That's part of the fun of the hobby.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    A handy Poser user only needs 2 things:

    • the obj file
    • the diffuse texture
      He/she can rebuild all the rest in house.

    Diffuse and Bump maps go in all render engines.
    FireFly has an issue with Normal maps, and SuperFly has an issue with Displacement maps.
    Metals and Specular need a lot of attention, so best to rebuild for the specific render engine anyway.

    It does not matter for what figure the original was build.
    PP11+cr2editor, Blender(or equivalent) and Krita(Gimp) + some motivation and spare time are all that's required.



  • @vilters
    But 90% of the users aren't going to take the time to learn how to use any of these features.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @ssgbryan
    Yes, I know. But the market is slowing down and the possibilities are there.



  • @shvrdavid said in Sales stats:

    Not to be unpleasant but frankly I'm amazed at your response Shvr.

    Why would DAZ release numbers like this to begin with?

    Because their entire livelihood depends upon acting as a vendor for other artist's content. The more precisely those creators match the requirements of the market the more they will sell. To a point, until the market becomes saturated.

    And selling what people wants, well, what user or base?

    Irrelevant. All that counts is sales. If DAZ sell 1000 units, and 50 percent are sets and landscapes, and 30 percent are for G3F, that tells me that maybe I should focus on G3F OR try to fill a market gap by going somewhere else.

    Every store forces you to either buy what they sell, or shop somewhere else.

    Well of course, but if they are not selling what I want, there may be no choice. Case in point, today I went to find a particular type of pose set. I searched all the main stores and could only find a single worthwhile product, massively overpriced in the DAZ store. Every other had products that were not worth buying. There is clearly a significant market hole there. Rather than leaving it and simply hoping that users spot that hole, DAZ and Rendro should be actively giving their creators the tools to identify that hole. This is the problem with being both a reseller and a vendor of original content - a massive conflict of interests.

    Vendors create what they want too, what they are good at, etc.

    Not if they are doing it to make a living rather than simply a hobby. They identify what the market needs and produce accordingly.

    They learn from experience what their user base buys. Note I said their user base, not a poll or opinion on it.

    But that's simply a case of their user base adapting to fit what they sell. Hardly a useful sample of the market and it takes a long time to build that kind of reputation. And take someone like Neftis - built a great reputation doing nothing but hair, then poached by DAZ and now a large percentage of her market is excluded! Only a smart business move if she got double the percentage cut IMO!

    That is what drives the market to begin with, new figures, new content.

    New content not new figures. There's a HUGE amount of life left in the old figures, but DAZ keeps reinventing exactly the same wheel. They could easily improve the existing figures and this is clearly what a significanty part of the market wants otherwise they wouldn't constantly release backward compatibility stuff like V4/M4 UV maps, shapes, etc. There were so many bend fixes and HD textures etc for V4/M4. They still look great when used properly, and the market could have spent its time comprehensively catering to them. Instead every year or two, DAZ presses the damned reset button and screws us all over.

    Throw users into the mix that use other 3D programs, know how to model, etc.
    Well, they know how to modify or make what they want anyway.

    Again, with respect, completely irrelevant. I'm not asking what the non-purchasing public is doing with DS and Poser, I'm interested in knowing what those who ARE willing to spend are doing.

    People have asked these questions for years, and there are no easy one fit answers.

    There ARE clear statistics (and you can be CERTAIN that DAZ uses them in developing its OWN products), but vendors like them are more interested in their overall stores, than in taking care of the creators who provide them with a livelihood.

    What answers it best to a vendor, is their own sales.
    Not someone else's, or opinions on it.

    Sorry Shvr but you're absolutely wrong. What sells is not some nebulous, hand wafty personal opinion. Some things empirically sell better than others. I want to know what those things are so that I can cater to them. That seems perfectly reasonable. In no other business do you just take a guess at what might sell. Your local supermarket doesn't fill the shelves with caviar and pate de fois gras because that's what the manager likes. They monitor sales and fill their valuable shelf space with precisely the item that have the best chance of selling.

    However, and this is the massive problem, just as supermarkets have to stock a lot of crap that rarely sells to provide the variety to appeal across the board, so too do Poser stores. Thus it's not in their interests to dissuade creators from wasting their time on products that will not sell enough to justify the effort of creation. To put it bluntly, the stores are willing to sacrifice their vendors to create variety. I don't wish to be sacrificed.

    I'm most grateful to you for sharing your thoughts, but I couldn't disagree more with most of what you've said here.



  • @vilters & @ssgbryan If the users can't afford to buy content they will quickly learn to use free modelling apps / painting systems, it's certainly why I started making my own content



  • @ssgbryan Precisely! It always makes me laugh when people here talk as though most users are simply going to buy a copy of blender or even star messing with wardrobe wizard every time they want something. I think with the very greatest of respect to vilters, shvr and others, you guys have been around experts too long and you fail to recognise that 99% of the market is not like that.



  • @vilters The average user wants to create pictures not models. I would suggest that the average user would not know what to do with an obj file if you gave it to them - especially if it was a figure or clothing model.



  • @amethystpendant said in Sales stats:

    @vilters & @ssgbryan If the users can't afford to buy content they will quickly learn to use free modelling apps / painting systems, it's certainly why I started making my own content

    I think "quickly" is an overstatement. I know loads of people who have an artistic vision but gave it up because programs such as Blender and even DAZ studio were way too complicated for them. We live in a world that desires fast gratification. Deferring that for a month whilst you build your own clothes and figures, then painstakingly build your own texture maps is not something that the massive majority has any interest in.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Tja,
    Then I must see this 3D hobby wider then most;
    From start to finish; => Idea => Modeling => Texturing => Rigging => Rendering => Satisfaction.

    To each his/her own, but I find the "pose and rendering part" the most boring part of the whole 3D hobby. :-)



  • @matb said in Sales stats:

    @ssgbryan Precisely! It always makes me laugh when people here talk as though most users are simply going to buy a copy of blender or even star messing with wardrobe wizard every time they want something. I think with the very greatest of respect to vilters, shvr and others, you guys have been around experts too long and you fail to recognise that 99% of the market is not like that.

    Vendors believe that because their business model depends on them believing that. From what I have seen, vendors don't seem to grasp that it isn't Oct 2007 anymore. They may still be using a workflow designed for Poser 6, but that doesn't mean the customers are.

    The thing is, once they take those steps into the fitting room or the cloth room, they start kicking themselves for not doing it earlier. I know a lot of folks never went back into the cloth room because their computers lacked the horsepower to use it effectively in 2004 (Indeed - Poser has driven my computer purchases since then). The software and hardware are in synch now, so the problem has pretty much gone away.

    One doesn't buy a copy of blender - it's free. I'd also remind you that there are literally gigabytes of free content available. I'd also point out that one of the reasons people become experts (which now apparently means any step beyond Load, Conform "Make Art".) is because they get tired of dealing with vendor intransigence. It is certainly what drove me.

    I'm not an expert by any means, but I am one of those folks that bought WW when it 1st came out (I wanted my V3 content on Sydney - I like normal sized people, and Daz doesn't do normal sized people). Like it or not, once the Poser user decides they want to move beyond pin up art, they are going to have to learn how to do things.

    The Poser/DS marketplace has been in a positive feedback loop for the past decade, and is why I only spend about one tenth of what I used to spend for content. I certainly had no interest is becoming an expert - (I prefer to pay for products - so I can focus on MY art.) but by and large, the vendors have made it quite clear that what they do is about THEIR art, not the end user. For the most part, they have no vision, just constantly recycling the same crap over, and over. And then have the nerve to whine when we ask Why should I buy your hookerware? What makes it better than the literally thousands of other hookerware outfits?

    If I wanted to continue with MY art, I needed to start learning the tools available to me. And so I have.

    The fitting room is now a 60 second process (30 seconds if you are using Lyrra's Fit Room Magnets). The skill level required is much lower than it was. You don't have to know very much to get good results.

    This is important, because the DS figures simply don't have any clothing outside of impractical armor and hookerware, and Poser figures lack native content. (I am figure neutral - I don't give a s*** how they bend, because I don't do pinup art - my characters keep their clothes on.) I need a wide variety of sizes, ages, shapes, and races - and since the Poser/DS universe is pretty much All Caucasians, All The Time. It has gone from annoying to creepy, and is another reason why I use every figure I have collected over the last 13 years.

    It's the only way to get variety - because with most vendors, all of their characters look like they are siblings. Another thing that is gone from being annoying to creepy.

    Why would anyone painstakingly build your own texture map ?- any Poser user can get Texture Transformer and harvest any skin texture they have and put it on a variety of figures.

    Yes, it does enrage some vendors - RawArt over at DAZ nearly had an aneurysm when one of his customers told him he only bought a product for the skin texture, not the character he made. If they are old farts like me, they can expand that with a copy of Texture Converter. You don't actually need any skill to use either program, just the willingness to spend a few bucks, and wait a few minutes.

    The same can be said of Hair: For the price of a hair product, a Poser user can get a copy of Netherworks Hair Conversion System and use whatever hair they like, on any figure they like - Assuming they are too lazy to simply move the figure and adjust the scaling.

    The only things that are lacking is Poser Native pose conversion utilities (DS has some great ones - Gen4 to g1, g2, g2 to g3 and g3 to g2) and shoe conversions.

    Shoes are still problematic because every foot is rigged differently - although this is mainly do to vendors insisting on making shoes characters instead of props. - Here's a hint, vendors: If the shoe doesn't actually have moving parts for the toes, make it a prop (and include a foot pose file - vendors used to do this back in the V2/V3 timeframe). A lot less work for you, a lot more useful for me, the customer.

    Vendors have a very over-inflated sense of importance as to where they fit in the Poser/DS scheme of things. They are in the "nice to have" category as opposed to "essential" category. They aren't anywhere near as important as they used to be (but still think they are). Here's a hint - Sturgeons Law applies here, just like it does everywhere else.

    People buy Poser for the possibilities, not vendor limitations.



  • @matb said in Sales stats:

    Sorry Shvr but you're absolutely wrong.

    I'm glad you think so.



  • It would appear no two poser users use the program in the same way.

    Perhaps that's why Poser surveys never gave definitive answers of what new features users wanted or in which direction the Poser team should go because no one could ever agree lol

    I like making content but I also love buying content, if it's a new male figure or it's shiny I want it, I just wish I had more money haahaa :)



  • @adi said in Sales stats:

    It would appear no two poser users use the program in the same way.

    Perhaps that's why Poser surveys never gave definitive answers of what new features users wanted or in which direction the Poser team should go because no one could ever agree lol

    I like making content but I also love buying content, if it's a new male figure or it's shiny I want it, I just wish I had more money haahaa :)

    I suspect there is a great deal of truth to that.

    I'm happy for any improvements, whether I can use them or not.

    Although I would really like some help with lighting. I don't actually have a photography background, so it's pretty much a dark art for me.


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    @matb said in Sales stats:

    @ssgbryan Precisely! It always makes me laugh when people here talk as though most users are simply going to buy a copy of blender or even star messing with wardrobe wizard every time they want something. I think with the very greatest of respect to vilters, shvr and others, you guys have been around experts too long and you fail to recognise that 99% of the market is not like that.

    I could not agree more. Most of the DS and Poser user want just create nice images. This is why we have such a huge content market. The DS and Poser artists don't want to sit there for weeks and modelling, rigging , texturing , just to render one image. They don't want to learn modeling, many have no time, interest on it , they just want to use their few hours they have each day, to create something beautiful and relax.
    Respect this. Some has enough time , interest to learn modeling, rigging, some other not. And therefore is great when the content market offer stuff they need.


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