Sales stats


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @ssgbryan
    Yes, I know. But the market is slowing down and the possibilities are there.



  • @shvrdavid said in Sales stats:

    Not to be unpleasant but frankly I'm amazed at your response Shvr.

    Why would DAZ release numbers like this to begin with?

    Because their entire livelihood depends upon acting as a vendor for other artist's content. The more precisely those creators match the requirements of the market the more they will sell. To a point, until the market becomes saturated.

    And selling what people wants, well, what user or base?

    Irrelevant. All that counts is sales. If DAZ sell 1000 units, and 50 percent are sets and landscapes, and 30 percent are for G3F, that tells me that maybe I should focus on G3F OR try to fill a market gap by going somewhere else.

    Every store forces you to either buy what they sell, or shop somewhere else.

    Well of course, but if they are not selling what I want, there may be no choice. Case in point, today I went to find a particular type of pose set. I searched all the main stores and could only find a single worthwhile product, massively overpriced in the DAZ store. Every other had products that were not worth buying. There is clearly a significant market hole there. Rather than leaving it and simply hoping that users spot that hole, DAZ and Rendro should be actively giving their creators the tools to identify that hole. This is the problem with being both a reseller and a vendor of original content - a massive conflict of interests.

    Vendors create what they want too, what they are good at, etc.

    Not if they are doing it to make a living rather than simply a hobby. They identify what the market needs and produce accordingly.

    They learn from experience what their user base buys. Note I said their user base, not a poll or opinion on it.

    But that's simply a case of their user base adapting to fit what they sell. Hardly a useful sample of the market and it takes a long time to build that kind of reputation. And take someone like Neftis - built a great reputation doing nothing but hair, then poached by DAZ and now a large percentage of her market is excluded! Only a smart business move if she got double the percentage cut IMO!

    That is what drives the market to begin with, new figures, new content.

    New content not new figures. There's a HUGE amount of life left in the old figures, but DAZ keeps reinventing exactly the same wheel. They could easily improve the existing figures and this is clearly what a significanty part of the market wants otherwise they wouldn't constantly release backward compatibility stuff like V4/M4 UV maps, shapes, etc. There were so many bend fixes and HD textures etc for V4/M4. They still look great when used properly, and the market could have spent its time comprehensively catering to them. Instead every year or two, DAZ presses the damned reset button and screws us all over.

    Throw users into the mix that use other 3D programs, know how to model, etc.
    Well, they know how to modify or make what they want anyway.

    Again, with respect, completely irrelevant. I'm not asking what the non-purchasing public is doing with DS and Poser, I'm interested in knowing what those who ARE willing to spend are doing.

    People have asked these questions for years, and there are no easy one fit answers.

    There ARE clear statistics (and you can be CERTAIN that DAZ uses them in developing its OWN products), but vendors like them are more interested in their overall stores, than in taking care of the creators who provide them with a livelihood.

    What answers it best to a vendor, is their own sales.
    Not someone else's, or opinions on it.

    Sorry Shvr but you're absolutely wrong. What sells is not some nebulous, hand wafty personal opinion. Some things empirically sell better than others. I want to know what those things are so that I can cater to them. That seems perfectly reasonable. In no other business do you just take a guess at what might sell. Your local supermarket doesn't fill the shelves with caviar and pate de fois gras because that's what the manager likes. They monitor sales and fill their valuable shelf space with precisely the item that have the best chance of selling.

    However, and this is the massive problem, just as supermarkets have to stock a lot of crap that rarely sells to provide the variety to appeal across the board, so too do Poser stores. Thus it's not in their interests to dissuade creators from wasting their time on products that will not sell enough to justify the effort of creation. To put it bluntly, the stores are willing to sacrifice their vendors to create variety. I don't wish to be sacrificed.

    I'm most grateful to you for sharing your thoughts, but I couldn't disagree more with most of what you've said here.



  • @vilters & @ssgbryan If the users can't afford to buy content they will quickly learn to use free modelling apps / painting systems, it's certainly why I started making my own content



  • @ssgbryan Precisely! It always makes me laugh when people here talk as though most users are simply going to buy a copy of blender or even star messing with wardrobe wizard every time they want something. I think with the very greatest of respect to vilters, shvr and others, you guys have been around experts too long and you fail to recognise that 99% of the market is not like that.



  • @vilters The average user wants to create pictures not models. I would suggest that the average user would not know what to do with an obj file if you gave it to them - especially if it was a figure or clothing model.



  • @amethystpendant said in Sales stats:

    @vilters & @ssgbryan If the users can't afford to buy content they will quickly learn to use free modelling apps / painting systems, it's certainly why I started making my own content

    I think "quickly" is an overstatement. I know loads of people who have an artistic vision but gave it up because programs such as Blender and even DAZ studio were way too complicated for them. We live in a world that desires fast gratification. Deferring that for a month whilst you build your own clothes and figures, then painstakingly build your own texture maps is not something that the massive majority has any interest in.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Tja,
    Then I must see this 3D hobby wider then most;
    From start to finish; => Idea => Modeling => Texturing => Rigging => Rendering => Satisfaction.

    To each his/her own, but I find the "pose and rendering part" the most boring part of the whole 3D hobby. :-)



  • @matb said in Sales stats:

    @ssgbryan Precisely! It always makes me laugh when people here talk as though most users are simply going to buy a copy of blender or even star messing with wardrobe wizard every time they want something. I think with the very greatest of respect to vilters, shvr and others, you guys have been around experts too long and you fail to recognise that 99% of the market is not like that.

    Vendors believe that because their business model depends on them believing that. From what I have seen, vendors don't seem to grasp that it isn't Oct 2007 anymore. They may still be using a workflow designed for Poser 6, but that doesn't mean the customers are.

    The thing is, once they take those steps into the fitting room or the cloth room, they start kicking themselves for not doing it earlier. I know a lot of folks never went back into the cloth room because their computers lacked the horsepower to use it effectively in 2004 (Indeed - Poser has driven my computer purchases since then). The software and hardware are in synch now, so the problem has pretty much gone away.

    One doesn't buy a copy of blender - it's free. I'd also remind you that there are literally gigabytes of free content available. I'd also point out that one of the reasons people become experts (which now apparently means any step beyond Load, Conform "Make Art".) is because they get tired of dealing with vendor intransigence. It is certainly what drove me.

    I'm not an expert by any means, but I am one of those folks that bought WW when it 1st came out (I wanted my V3 content on Sydney - I like normal sized people, and Daz doesn't do normal sized people). Like it or not, once the Poser user decides they want to move beyond pin up art, they are going to have to learn how to do things.

    The Poser/DS marketplace has been in a positive feedback loop for the past decade, and is why I only spend about one tenth of what I used to spend for content. I certainly had no interest is becoming an expert - (I prefer to pay for products - so I can focus on MY art.) but by and large, the vendors have made it quite clear that what they do is about THEIR art, not the end user. For the most part, they have no vision, just constantly recycling the same crap over, and over. And then have the nerve to whine when we ask Why should I buy your hookerware? What makes it better than the literally thousands of other hookerware outfits?

    If I wanted to continue with MY art, I needed to start learning the tools available to me. And so I have.

    The fitting room is now a 60 second process (30 seconds if you are using Lyrra's Fit Room Magnets). The skill level required is much lower than it was. You don't have to know very much to get good results.

    This is important, because the DS figures simply don't have any clothing outside of impractical armor and hookerware, and Poser figures lack native content. (I am figure neutral - I don't give a s*** how they bend, because I don't do pinup art - my characters keep their clothes on.) I need a wide variety of sizes, ages, shapes, and races - and since the Poser/DS universe is pretty much All Caucasians, All The Time. It has gone from annoying to creepy, and is another reason why I use every figure I have collected over the last 13 years.

    It's the only way to get variety - because with most vendors, all of their characters look like they are siblings. Another thing that is gone from being annoying to creepy.

    Why would anyone painstakingly build your own texture map ?- any Poser user can get Texture Transformer and harvest any skin texture they have and put it on a variety of figures.

    Yes, it does enrage some vendors - RawArt over at DAZ nearly had an aneurysm when one of his customers told him he only bought a product for the skin texture, not the character he made. If they are old farts like me, they can expand that with a copy of Texture Converter. You don't actually need any skill to use either program, just the willingness to spend a few bucks, and wait a few minutes.

    The same can be said of Hair: For the price of a hair product, a Poser user can get a copy of Netherworks Hair Conversion System and use whatever hair they like, on any figure they like - Assuming they are too lazy to simply move the figure and adjust the scaling.

    The only things that are lacking is Poser Native pose conversion utilities (DS has some great ones - Gen4 to g1, g2, g2 to g3 and g3 to g2) and shoe conversions.

    Shoes are still problematic because every foot is rigged differently - although this is mainly do to vendors insisting on making shoes characters instead of props. - Here's a hint, vendors: If the shoe doesn't actually have moving parts for the toes, make it a prop (and include a foot pose file - vendors used to do this back in the V2/V3 timeframe). A lot less work for you, a lot more useful for me, the customer.

    Vendors have a very over-inflated sense of importance as to where they fit in the Poser/DS scheme of things. They are in the "nice to have" category as opposed to "essential" category. They aren't anywhere near as important as they used to be (but still think they are). Here's a hint - Sturgeons Law applies here, just like it does everywhere else.

    People buy Poser for the possibilities, not vendor limitations.



  • @matb said in Sales stats:

    Sorry Shvr but you're absolutely wrong.

    I'm glad you think so.



  • It would appear no two poser users use the program in the same way.

    Perhaps that's why Poser surveys never gave definitive answers of what new features users wanted or in which direction the Poser team should go because no one could ever agree lol

    I like making content but I also love buying content, if it's a new male figure or it's shiny I want it, I just wish I had more money haahaa :)



  • @adi said in Sales stats:

    It would appear no two poser users use the program in the same way.

    Perhaps that's why Poser surveys never gave definitive answers of what new features users wanted or in which direction the Poser team should go because no one could ever agree lol

    I like making content but I also love buying content, if it's a new male figure or it's shiny I want it, I just wish I had more money haahaa :)

    I suspect there is a great deal of truth to that.

    I'm happy for any improvements, whether I can use them or not.

    Although I would really like some help with lighting. I don't actually have a photography background, so it's pretty much a dark art for me.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @matb said in Sales stats:

    @ssgbryan Precisely! It always makes me laugh when people here talk as though most users are simply going to buy a copy of blender or even star messing with wardrobe wizard every time they want something. I think with the very greatest of respect to vilters, shvr and others, you guys have been around experts too long and you fail to recognise that 99% of the market is not like that.

    I could not agree more. Most of the DS and Poser user want just create nice images. This is why we have such a huge content market. The DS and Poser artists don't want to sit there for weeks and modelling, rigging , texturing , just to render one image. They don't want to learn modeling, many have no time, interest on it , they just want to use their few hours they have each day, to create something beautiful and relax.
    Respect this. Some has enough time , interest to learn modeling, rigging, some other not. And therefore is great when the content market offer stuff they need.



  • @shvrdavid said in Sales stats:

    @matb said in Sales stats:

    Sorry Shvr but you're absolutely wrong.

    I'm glad you think so.

    It's not a matter of opinion and snarky little come backs change nothing. There are empirical statistics that detail sales figures. The ratio of sales of one product to another is not opinion or feelings.



  • @ssgbryan I think that many/most vendors are only too well aware that times have moved on. The effort required to make a product is 5 times what it was as customer expectations and store standards (in some cases) have risen exponentially, yet sales have not necesarily risen accordingly. And this is where I DO agree with shvr, many/most vendors tend to create what they enjoy or are good at, not what sells, which is why, as you point out, so much of the outfits are hookerware. To be honest, I think that the stores shot themselves in the foot here with their low initial pricing models. They set the prices so low that it does not justify the effort of producing high quality products with lots of textures and beautifully crafted. It's better to find a niche product and sell that.
    I think most vendors get INTO selling because they make things for themselves that they discover sell, but if they are smart, once in, they think about what will sell. There are exceptions - people who hit paydirt on their first roll - Stonemason, Flink, and Neftis to name but a few, and who never need to diversify much because there is such a strong demand for what they already do.
    Funny thing here though, I've been using Poser for nearly two decades and I was actively LOOKING for a way to repurpose my M4/V4 textures and I didn't know that Texture Transformer existed. I have Texture Converter, and like you, I actually got Wardrobe Wizard before it was integrated into Poser (although updates for that seem to have stopped).
    I think many users are like me - they try these technologies out when they are new, and if they don't produce a decent result the first few times, they give up on them forever. Given Smith Micro's apparent reluctance to revisit old program components, that attitude seems justified, though I certainly recognise your point that processing power may have been the limitation for some.
    Again I agree with you about the desperate dearth of more diverse clothing, especially for the male figures. The number of times that I need simple casual wear yet I can only find a few items that have long been overused. There's 90,000 soldier, space armour costumes, a few pairs of jeans and Tshirts and it stops there. Which brings me full circle. Does it stop there because people do not buy it, or does it stop there because people are not making it?



  • @matb said in Sales stats: Does it stop there because people do not buy it, or does it stop there because people are not making it?

    It stops there because customers go out on public forums and pick those pieces to shreds. There was a recent thread at DAZ where the users took every single male casual outfit apart and ripped the vendors to pieces.

    If that's what you want to do, go for it, but don't expect vendors to come back for more abuse when you do.


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