What could cause Poser Pro 11 to crash during a save?

  • @vilters said in What could cause Poser Pro 11 to crash during a save?:

    Ahaa, while the cursor is still spinning? Tja, in that case? I would crash too. LOL

    Blink left, but turn right. LOL.

    Hehe most software does obey Windows traffic laws to avoid crashes ;)

    @F_Verbaas said in What could cause Poser Pro 11 to crash during a save?:

    I have the occasional crash in Poser 11 but never during a save action.
    My Poser saves are to a secondary harddisk in the system cabinet that powers off when not needed and speeds up obediently to accept file save.
    Maybe a matter of privileges or some african bug left in your system?

    It happened across three computers over a period of a month with SR6. All W7 and i7 machines, identical drive and OS setup, two MSI mobos, and one HP, different scenes, similar figures (M4, PE). Scenes in my computers are saved on the D drive. Regular installations. Have worked fine under PP2014 with the normal crashes that PP2014 has. In otherwords, there's definitely nothing wrong with my systems. They are 100% airgapped. Local closed offline network. All online data traffic goes through a dedicated online computer with antivirus apps, physically disconnected from my local network. Transfer was manual, via USB drives. I worked through a VPN. Everything worked fine since 2012 with exception of one memory fail.

    PP014 has its crashes but I know it so well now I know when to expect them. So in a way you could say that PP2014 works 'stable' for me. PP2014 never crashes on saves, nor does 3DSMax, AutoCAD, Maya, Photoshop, zBrush, or any other application I know. And its not for ignoring them or not being aware of them because I would be aware of such crashes since most of my scenes are pretty big and take 1 minute to save. The DD1 scenes sometimes took 3 minutes to save. But they never failed in PP2014.

    Suspects: All scenes were big, and I think all those scenes did have a history of importing other Poser documents. Poser has a history of crashing when processes are desynchronized, that s to say you can crash poser by clicking on too many buttons at once. Poser doesn't wait for itself, you could say, and with big scenes I wouldn't be surprised if some routine gets called and gets surpassed by another thread with a different IO write process, causing it to crash. Poser also has a history of not having inbuilt failsafes for the most basic things, like cramming the texture cache until the drive is full, and then some. Guaranteed crash. All scenes saved fine in PP2014, in fact now I remember once incident that PP11 crashed on save after a scene was imported. The same actions didn't crash PP2014.

    So its definitely Poser Pro 11, and not an African bug. We just step on those ;)

  • I think it could be isolated to the save routine but it would require dedicated testing.

    So I had a series of devastating crashes that resulted in corrupted scene files.

    One possibility was corrupted memory modules, which does cause corrupted scene files like I saw with an artist friend of mine. But this was not the case with me because 1) PP2014 didn't have that problem with those scenes, and 2) those same PCs are still 100% functional and no other software has shown any faults.

    Another possibility, albeit very slim, is the Malawian power grid fluctuations that affected my system despite my UPS. I've noticed that since I've been in the UK, I haven't had any BSOD's yet, whereas in Malawi I got a few per month while rendering. So I could only link that to the power grid because that's the only thing that has changed. But I am certain that this cannot be the cause since all my other software kept on working fine, including PP2014, despite the power grid fluctuations.

    The reason I suspect the save routine is because of one incident where backing up a saved scene to a copy corrupted BOTH files. So one pzz was already 'saved', but then when the second was in the process of saving, pzz crashed (it must be noted that I had used kinect capture for this scene, and I've noticed that kinect capture + animation layers makes a scene unstable). So anyway, both were corrupt. Assuming (and I say this carefully) that Poser doesn't edit a file when reading from it, like with most software, that means that the save routine corrupted the original pzz already, while Poser was working fine, and then ran into the same problem during a second save to overwriting the backup, this time resulting in a crash.

    Because its just once incident, its not much to go on, but since I have literally NEVER seen that before in other software, I find it very suspicious.

    What do you think?

  • I've gotten Python error messages when saving.
    The .pz3 files seem to reload just fine though...

  • @erogenesis said in What could cause Poser Pro 11 to crash during a save?:

    What do you think?

    1 - Just how massive are the scenes that trigger the crash?
    2 - You could send one of your crashing scenes in PP2014 to someone who has PP11 and see if he has same. Then you would have isolated it from all relation to your systems and install.
    If you installed Poser from same installer the copies may have the same bits toppled over, etc.

  • @dlfurman said in What could cause Poser Pro 11 to crash during a save?:

    I've gotten Python error messages when saving.
    The .pz3 files seem to reload just fine though...

    Yeah I think I also get error messages from Jojo's PoseWriter or something.

    @F_Verbaas said in What could cause Poser Pro 11 to crash during a save?:

    @erogenesis said in What could cause Poser Pro 11 to crash during a save?:

    What do you think?

    1 - Just how massive are the scenes that trigger the crash?
    2 - You could send one of your crashing scenes in PP2014 to someone who has PP11 and see if he has same. Then you would have isolated it from all relation to your systems and install.
    If you installed Poser from same installer the copies may have the same bits toppled over, etc.

    The scenes fill the RAM up to about 20Gb. 80 props and about 10 fully loaded PE and M4 figures, and then all of their clothes and hair. Not the biggest scenes I've ever done, but enough to make the save routine do its thing for longer than normal.

    What I can do is this: I just bought a new PC, yet again same config, but now with nexgen DDR4 RAM. I will load up that scene if I can find it, and then import a scene into it, and then try save it. I think that's what might have caused the crash. I thik I remember this happening a few times with other scenes too in PP11.

    But still, I've imported scenes in PP2014 hundreds of times and that never crashes the save routine. I could send the scene but that will mean sending about 6Gb of runtime along with it, and there's a lot of private stuff in the scene too. FBMs of ex-girlfriends etc... :D

    Does Poser write crash logs?

  • Poser Ambassadors

    I've had 2 crashes during saving big scenes with SR6. Haven't been able to reproduce it. But I suspect the morph tool as both times it happened the morph tool was active (open). Haven't had a save crash yet after I close the morph tool before saving.
    Can you recall if your morph tool was open when your scene crashed?

  • No it was definitely not open. I rarely use the morph tool in the big scenes since its too slow to be useful, and I prefer zBrush over the morph tool usually. Also, when I tested the scene, the morph tool was very unlikely to have been opened.

    But still, that could say something. Did you have a 'restriction' set? Edit: I often get crashes in PP2014 when I limit the tool to a group. In PP11 this seems more stable as far as I remember, but could still be a related thing.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    I can't remember if grouping was used.

    The slow morph tool in big scenes you can "fix" by grouping figures and objects into "hidden groups". Then you can isolate everything to only work with the object/figure you want to morph on. It speeds up the morph tool a lot and also posing figures will be faster.

  • @Batman yeah that true yes. I have done that before for posing purposes.

  • Just one last idea ? Does it make a difference if you use file compression?

  • @F_Verbaas yes it does. My hard drive fills up very fast :D lol

    (sorry I thought you said if you don't use file compression. I always use file compression)

    I'll try disabling compression with my tests this weekend.

  • @erogenesis

    Hi there

    Really not sure, but I'm in agreement with others, not seen the crashes in Poser 11, only CUDA errors which are mostly down to Nvidia drivers and Windows(TDR) itself and in few cases this can be down to OC of the GPUs

    M scenes are pretty big and last week I done my largest render in FireFly for my friend, scene has have 12 figures and several props exported from 3DS Max and VUE and RAM usage has been close to 64GB and no crashes, viewport has been pretty slow as you can imagine but rendered that without the issue

    Will be redoing that scene for SuperFly and will see how SF will manage that

    In Poser 2014 crashes has been more common like exporting OBJ and Poser crashed at export of complex scene,crashing during the rendering this I never seen or during the saving the scene

    I don't use compression like for folders etc and everything works as should there

    Hard to say why this does happen to yours

    Hope this helps

    Thanks, Jura

  • Poser Ambassadors

    I have very rare crash also. Mostly when I change to often my lights , or delete a lot in the scene.
    Poser 11 is very stable on my PC. Win 10

  • Thanks everyone for your responses. Even though PP11 might be more stable in the usual areas, that save crash scares me to death. I much rather stick with buggy old PP2014 than risk loosing another scene. I'm fine with it, except for PP11's posing in the preview, that's the only thing I miss.

    Honestly, I'm surprised you guys like PP11 at all. I know I'm just going to invite responses praising PP11, but I've just had a very different experience with PP11 I think. The GoZ feature in PP11 is useless and very unstable ('morph brush' in zBrush doesn't work anymore and sending props along regardless, which probably makes it unstable), the pre-transform option which I fought so hard for since 2014 is very unstable, my old method with Color Curvature is more reliable; Mastersync was a thorn in my side until they finally killed it in SR6, but by then the damage had already been done since all the head keyframes were now locked into the body keyframes in several scenes. If you don't do keyframing you won't know what I'm talking about. Weirdness with movie render (cancelling it is sometimes impossible). Windows focus madness. The Morph Injection Exporter is only useful for simple FBMs (sometimes not even that), but ERC codes don't get included and PMDs are sometimes empty. Might as well just use PFE. And most importantly, the save crash. I've probably missed something as well. I'm actually wondering if the faster posing is even worth bothering over. Honestly I'd much rather they revamp PP2014 with the faster Posing and superfly.

    I forgot to mention that those "Big Scenes" were also big in the sense of poses and keyframe information. A lot of work goes into that, also very intense and personal, and I think I lost the equivalent of 150 frames of storytelling. Every time I think of working in PP11 it scares me to death. I hate loosing scenes with Lali and Sen in them. Together with the rigging issues, in 2016 I wasted so much time because of that app. Project E should have been released a long time ago. PP2014 does have its crashes, but at least it doesn't crash where it matters the most. I hope they fix everything with PP12.

    Anyway. I'll see if I can reproduce that crash this weekend. Does Poser have a way to write error logs? I see a few lines in Poser.ini I could set to 1.

  • Just for the record, I really do like Poser a lot, which is why I really want it to get fixed ;)

  • I remember now what the pattern was. The scenes that crashed had partial scenes imported into them, on three different scenes and two computers, the partial scene crashed the save.

    Just tested the same scene, imported the partial scene (which had two M4s in them). Imported the partial scene and saved in PP11 on my new DDR4 machine. The save did not crash. Tested 4 times.

    Old machines (2x): i7 Intel 3.8GHz, MSI mobo, 32Gb RAM DDR3 Corsair, 256Gb SSD, 1Tb HD, GTX760; 500W; W7 64bits

    New machine: i7 Intel 7700 Kaby Lake Processor 4.1GHz, Asus mobo, 32Gb DDR4 RAM Corsair, 256Gb SSD, 1Tb HD, 3Tb HD; GTX760; 500W; W7 64bits

    I am suspecting the texture cache now, which crashes poser as Poser indiscriminately crams it full, since I now have bigger hard drives. But then again, why would PP2014 survive and PP11 not?

    Another possibility is that I didn't update Windows around that time. My render PCs rarely go online and ever since that W10 annoyance appeared I've reluctantly updated W7. But if the saves crashed because of a missing windows update, I'm sure Poser would warn me... right?

    I'll retry my old setup to reproduce the crash there where I first saw it. I'll keep testing PP11 with experimental scenes. I hope I the save crash doesn't happen again.

  • Same crash still happens. Latest Poser (as of today). Simple scene, 3 figures (v4 and some non-complex clothing), 3 lights.

    Happens when I'm using the morph tool or mucking with joints. In both cases, I'm affecting the mesh. It also happens when I clean out nodes.

    So far, it seems to always reload the scene, albeit, at the state it was in before I started editing whatever I was editing. As autosaves go, this seems pretty weak. I might turn it off. It seems to destabilize Poser more than normal.

    I use GIT to version the files anyway. Shame there's not a nice simple GIT integration. Given that pz files are text based, git seems like a good way to go for versioning. Maybe I'll write one in python.