How SM can turn Poser's market share around....



  • @James_in_3D said in How SM can turn Poser's market share around....:

    @eclark1849 I fully agree with you, Earl.

    Given the events elsewhere in the past 24 hours, I expect the trolls will be coming out in force. :(

    Yeah, they follow a pretty set pattern.



  • @AmbientShade said in How SM can turn Poser's market share around....:

    What events elsewhere? Did I miss something? Like I usually do..

    Ditto for me - what did I miss, I've only been around here since I closed my Platinum Club membership - don't visit those other places.



  • @tastiger The bees are a buzzing at Hivewire. We need some emojis, dammit! Stat!


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @tastiger said in How SM can turn Poser's market share around....:

    Sorry but it just irks me that we are still using clothing technology from the last century...

    Maybe one reason might be that the Cloth Room is so slow. Either way, I use it whenever I have to pose a conforming dress, skirt, or even longer hair that misbehave in my scenes. But it wouldn't hurt if SMS could make the damn thing multi-threaded or GPU accelerated. I can get away with it as is because I have a fast PC, but I pity the rest of the people stuck with slower computers. The just released iClone 7 has proven once again how easy it is to rig real-time cloth and hair using the Bullet engine - the SAME one we have in Poser, but it's quite underused. Believe me, it's much more FUN to work with it when it's more responsive. Besides that, I believe the vast majority of Poser users don't even KNOW the Cloth Room is there, or what it is for. LOL


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @tastiger So true. I love the Cloth room. Dynamic clothes are my fav.personal and I never get tired to encourage users to use them.
    Shocking part, many long time Poser user , ( version 5) still don't know how to use the Cloth room properly. They just never care. Excuses are enough out. Takes to long , one of the most used arguments why they prefer conforming outfit.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @Ladonna said in How SM can turn Poser's market share around....:

    @tastiger So true. I love the Cloth room. Dynamic clothes are my fav.personal and I never get tired to encourage users to use them.
    Shocking part, many long time Poser user , ( version 5) still don't know how to use the Cloth room properly. They just never care. Excuses are enough out. Takes to long , one of the most used arguments why they prefer conforming outfit.

    I have done several experiences to animate HAIR with the cloth room, and it's fun just to play with it. But even MORE fun was to animate HAIR in real-time animations using soft-body dynamics with the Bullet engine. MAN that is FUN, but also cumbersome to set up. The default Bullet gravity and number of steps per frame are WAAY too high for hair simulations. Soft-body dynamics are affected by the distance between vertexes, so if you apply a morph to the character or the hair, your have to redo the simulation parameter all over again.

    iClone 6 and 7 have greatly simplified the interface to setup and achieve these same effects with minimal effort, or even by a button click using multiple presets. And instead of painting weight maps, you simply use a greyscale map over the texture template where black is no motion, and white is fully dynamic. It's sooo much easier and quicker to setup like that.

    Poser would learn a few ways to make things better by just looking around. iClone is quickly getting more advanced than Poser in many fields, like native support for dynamic Substance materials, real-time DirectX 11 tessellation, native support for SpeedTree, real-time PBR rendering like Marmoset Toolbag does, real-time HDRI with Global Illumination, vector displacement support, real-time hair and cloth sims with Bullet engine, real-time feet contact with the floor with any characters, real-time facial puppeteering with multiple layers of animation, and a complete rigging and animation retargeting system.

    Who could imagine iClone could pack so much of the latest state-of-the-art technologies in such a short period? Poser has existed for much longer, but it's still living in the past when it comes to nowadays standards. We don't have to look far to realize that. iClone 5 used to be less than mediocre comparing to Poser, but now... iClone 7 is surpassing Poser 11 in many ways.



  • (Been away for awhile - Had emergency surgery an' stuffs... yay... :) )

    On the OP:

    "How can SM turn Poser's Market Share around?"

    OK... What is Poser's Market Share?

    That's the first question that has to be answered. Seriously. It can't be just a "looks like" number but must some decent idea of what its share actually is. Increasing "sales" is a different sort of question. If you can't measure progress against a stated goal, the goal is pretty meaningless. (The former, regarding "market share"... doesn't mean anything at all, really. I shall explain. :) )

    Does a business care what its market share is? No. Businesses that are looking to "increase their market share" have, at such a goal's heart, only the goal of reducing direct competition. Is that what we or SM really want? Not my call, really. That's "war" and war isn't profitable for anyone except the "arms dealers." And, in this case, the "arms dealer" won that battle and maybe that war. But, losing a war doesn't mean anything if it doesn't cost you anything to lose it. (Translated: If someone else generates new customers who wouldn't buy your product, anyway, then that one thing doesn't mean anything for you except in the case of "competition" for a particular expanding market. THAT does have an impact, somewhat, here. )

    The bottom line, from our point of view, and from SM's point of view, in my guesstimate, is that we both want Poser to remain profitable, remain an ongoing enterprise, and we wish to see new things for Poser be produced at a sufficient volume and quality to keep us entertained with the Product for as long as trees grow and rocks still behave properly like rocks... with all their rockiness intact.

    That's an achievable goal. There's no outside metrics required and nobody needs to hire a corporate spy.

    "Throw money at it! Money fixes everything!" <--- This is what we, as conscientious users, need to avoid getting entangled with when we think about our suggestions. i guarantee you that ideas and suggestions from users that could make significant inroads into achieving "our" goals and that don't cost Smith Micro any further capital, other than whatever maintenance wages they're paying developers anyway, will be paid very close attention to by The Powers That Be.

    If we care about the product and the company, we care about increased sales, increase profitability, increased new-user satisfaction and increased return-user sales and add-on sales.

    Historically, in Poserdom, that has meant "cool render, bro." But, that is not enough, by itself, to push new sales. 3D is beginning to push itself into the "new user" market. It's still a hobbyist's and gamer's realm, but those markets are expanding. (And, that question, about "markets" is more along the lines of the OP question. And, also, a different sort of question regarding new market opportunities. But, that's a component of profitability, etc, that we want to see. It's complicated. :) )

    Ending it here, for now. The point is this - Good suggestions that increase Poser sales and help increase its profitability are what we want to give. Yes, there are great technical things that Poser users would like to have access to, but those may not be the suggestions that actually increase product (Poser) sales. They may make us happy, though. (HAIR! ZOMGZ MY KINGDOM, IF I HAD ONE, FOR DECENT HAIR! ;) )

    PS - The whole point of this post is to sort of do away with the idea that direct "competition is necessary" and that a "war" of "market share" does not have to be fought in order for us and SM to be happy and for Poser development and exploitation to be profitable and an ongoing enterprise.



  • Here is a quote from one of my friends that uses MOHO

    "I've been watching the stock performance of Smith Micro (SMSI) because I like their software Clip Studio Paint, Moho and Poser. Unfortunately they are in a death spiral (layoffs, reverse stock splits, loans to keep the lights on, stock dilution). Today the stock dipped below $1 five days before their earnings call. I think it's a safe bet they are going to be delisted by NASDAQ"



  • @ghostship And if I recall correctly, it wouldn't be the first time.

    And while Morkonan may feel that direct competition isn't necessary, well frankly, and admittedly in my own opinion, Smith Micro has never seen it's competition as "competition, even when it's all but stood up and slapped them in the face. And I do understand Poser's reluctance to treat DAZ as competition. For the longest time, but under different ownership, Poser and DAZ had a very comfortable symbiotic relationship. The new owners of DAZ have no history with Poser and obviously feel they owe Poser nothing.



  • @ghostship said in How SM can turn Poser's market share around....:

    Here is a quote from one of my friends that uses MOHO

    "I've been watching the stock performance of Smith Micro (SMSI) because I like their software Clip Studio Paint, Moho and Poser. Unfortunately they are in a death spiral (layoffs, reverse stock splits, loans to keep the lights on, stock dilution). Today the stock dipped below $1 five days before their earnings call. I think it's a safe bet they are going to be delisted by NASDAQ"

    For what it's worth...

    0_1501823123579_Image 156.jpg



  • @eclark1849 said in How SM can turn Poser's market share around....:
    ...

    And while Morkonan may feel that direct competition isn't necessary, well frankly, and admittedly in my own opinion, Smith Micro has never seen it's competition as "competition, even when it's all but stood up and slapped them in the face. And I do understand Poser's reluctance to treat DAZ as competition. For the longest time, but under different ownership, Poser and DAZ had a very comfortable symbiotic relationship. The new owners of DAZ have no history with Poser and obviously feel they owe Poser nothing.

    I agree. The problem is this - Smith Micro can not compete with Daz3D. That's just the truth. Why? Because they don't have the content generation capability and stable of popular artists that Daz does. Why? Well, I won't get into it, but it's because DAZ attacked that vigorously. Also, Daz has a heck of a good guerrilla marketing program going on and is ruthless about exploiting (mean that in a business sense) its existing customer base. For DAZ, the only iron they have in the fire is Daz Studio and their content sales. That's it. That is their entire focus, practically speaking ($$$)

    None of these things are true for SM. However, that does not mean that it's hopeless or Poser is dead on the branch. What that does mean, though, that SM must focus on its product, expanding its customer base and developing new avenues of approach, possibly through innovation or effective marketing and targeting strategies, but WITHOUT attempting to enter the field in a war of direct competition unless they are prepared to throw huge amounts of money at making up for previous shortfalls in effort.

    So, basically what I'm saying is that unless SM is willing to dump a large sum, plus a lot of time, in completely revamping just about everything they have regarding Poser, in order to actually compete on equal footing with their closest "3D Hobbyist Dolly Dressup" competitor, they need to fight where the enemy isn't, advance where the territory is unguarded, loot where the enemy has not already looted and build a viable, profitable, stronghold with the least amount of expensive harassment possible. Evaluating possible allies and looking for partnerships is also a good, comparably inexpensive, strategy. It costs a lot to send troops off to war, but little to exploit the gains made by a successful diplomat with a favorable treaty. :)

    @James_in_3D said in How SM can turn Poser's market share around....:

    @ghostship said in How SM can turn Poser's market share around....:

    Here is a quote from one of my friends that uses MOHO

    "I've been watching the stock performance of Smith Micro (SMSI) because I like their software Clip Studio Paint, Moho and Poser. Unfortunately they are in a death spiral (layoffs, reverse stock splits, loans to keep the lights on, stock dilution). Today the stock dipped below $1 five days before their earnings call. I think it's a safe bet they are going to be delisted by NASDAQ"

    I remember posting something similar a ways back, included links to SM's published prospectus and the like. One of the things you have to know is that they spent a large chunk of change in product development and exploitation of their networking and IT assets. That's a good thing, as these are much higher profit markets. They also cut some of their budget and have consolidated offices/positions, IIRC. This started around two years ago, IIRC, according to what I remember.

    De-listing happens. At these share prices, it's not that big of a deal as long as the company has the stage set so they can make the most of what they have in order to return. (IIRC, I mentioned delisting predictions at that time, too, several months ago. Six, maybe more?)

    I love Poser and SM, because of Poser. So, I'll just say this - Wait to see what the end-of-year returns are before making any proclamations. :) Look for a stable trend with steady, but slow, growth. Ignore spikes, unless they're signs of huge great contracts/deals that will pay off over years.

    Note: IF SM wants to consolidate, it's possible they could sell off Poser. But, it's likely it'd be a whole line deal, with all the graphics apps, as it appears they want to focus more resources, overall, into IT/Networking. That focus does not, however, mean anything bad for us, as it may not take a big dev team to do what needs to be done for maintaining and exploiting Poser. IOW - It's not a dire sign yet for Poser fans nor is it a sign that users should reinvest their time/money just yet.



  • The simplest thing be for Poser to simply work with DAZ figures.

    But then we have it on good authority that this is not possible. I would think that this is why Poser doesn't support DAZ figures.

    A lot of very good content creators prefer to work with the tech that underlies DS. I'm not arguing GUI, consumer intent, or even consumer capability. This is purely how the underlying tech supports what content creators would do, and how they would do it easily.

    DAZ started off and has always been a content creator, right? Then a store front. Then graphics software.

    I always thought the app came from their desire as content creators to have tech (the app) support what they wanted to do as content creators.

    Nastiness in business, snarkiness, etc, aside, how could this general strategy not work to their advantage? The market moved forward, relative to Poser. Sigh...

    I've never seen software that had that happen ever come back.

    The only even remotely possible way: completely support the tech underlying DAZ figures (unimesh, dual quats, etc.). Drop the cost of "entry level/non pro" to zero. (pro is for creators and pro users; non-pro is for point and click)

    Make the content creation pipeline for even DAZ tech'd figures better than DS. And, longer term, add even better things like implicit skinning. With bulletproof export/import blender, MAX, Maya, etc.

    Make tech support for the pro version perfect. Make the documentation for everyone perfect.

    Or not.



  • @James_in_3D said in How SM can turn Poser's market share around....:

    @ghostship said in How SM can turn Poser's market share around....:

    Here is a quote from one of my friends that uses MOHO

    "I've been watching the stock performance of Smith Micro (SMSI) because I like their software Clip Studio Paint, Moho and Poser. Unfortunately they are in a death spiral (layoffs, reverse stock splits, loans to keep the lights on, stock dilution). Today the stock dipped below $1 five days before their earnings call. I think it's a safe bet they are going to be delisted by NASDAQ"

    For what it's worth...

    0_1501823123579_Image 156.jpg

    Nice bounce back, Smith Micro.

    Smith Micro Software, Inc. Common Stock Quote & Summary Data
    $2.79 0.031.09%*
    *Delayed - data as of Jan. 19, 2018 - Find a broker to begin trading SMSI now


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @thoennes I think SMS has already clearly mentioned that Poser cannot support the Genesis platform for legal reasons - it's intellectual property of DAZ3D. It's the same reason DS cannot (and will not) ever support Poser shader nodes - it's intellectual property and protected by copyright law.



  • @eclark1849

    You do realize that SM's graphic division makes up about 10% of Smith Micro, right?



  • @Ken1171 Not talking about a platform. I’m talking about the tech they use. Dual quats are not a DAZ invention. Nor is using a single mesh figure. Nor is the rigging, subdivision, or texturing. Sure, the application and how it manipulates the underlying figure are proprietary. But is there something fundamental to a genesis figure that is proprietary? Or is it how DS works with that figure?



  • @ssgbryan Yeah. Never understood their purchase of Poser and attempts at entering a crowded graphics market. Graphics apps require pretty specifically skilled programmers. And consumer market stuff. Seemed to be way outside of their expertise. No chance of a snowball in heck that they could go up against existing big players. Not without pouring tons of money into it for a decade. Seemed odd. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at the meeting where this was first proposed :)



  • @ssgbryan Not sure what point you're trying to make. Can you just spell it out for me?


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @thoennes said in How SM can turn Poser's market share around....:

    @Ken1171 Not talking about a platform. I’m talking about the tech they use. Dual quats are not a DAZ invention. Nor is using a single mesh figure. Nor is the rigging, subdivision, or texturing. Sure, the application and how it manipulates the underlying figure are proprietary. But is there something fundamental to a genesis figure that is proprietary? Or is it how DS works with that figure?

    Yes, it is exactly HOW the Genesis platform uses these technologies that makes it incompatible with Poser. For instance, both Poser and DS use weight maps in very similar ways, but nonetheless, they are incompatible with one another. This is not about who invented the technology, but how it is used in particular.

    In addition, who said Dual Quaternions are good for Poser? That was meant for game models rigging, and the only reason DAZ is now using it is because they want the gaming industry to use their figures - which will never happen. By a long shot, dual Quats is an inferior rigging system comparing to TriAx. For starters, it uses a single map per joint, while TriAx uses 3. That's why Genesis 3/8 require so many JCMs to pose properly, which becomes a nightmare for content creation.

    They have also sacrificed figure topology quality and poly count trying to please the gaming industry. And then they came up with subdivision sculpting to make up for the low poly, crappy topology in their new figures - while trying to convince people that this is an advantage. Genesis 2 didn't need any of that to look, morph and pose well, so that speaks for itself.

    Thanks GOD SMS isn't trying to turn Poser figures into low poly game models with simplistic rigging!



  • @eclark1849

    I thought I was replying to ghostship, RE: stock price. My bad.


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to Graphics Forum was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.