How SM can turn Poser's market share around....



  • @v3rlon Then what do you do or say to the people who don't like or want your "rigid" organization and want to set up their own organization?



  • @v3rlon said in How SM can turn Poser's market share around....:

    No more shirts with the people, hair with the props, and so on. No more !MAT files in the Poses directory. Suddenly, it is easy to find things. That would help a lot.

    I've been using my own method of organization in both DS and Poser, starting back with DS 2, then DS 3 Advanced, and DS 4.0 Pro for years. In more recent years I've been doing it with P9, and PP11. The only organization that is absolutely, positively, necessary to follow in the Runtime folder are Geometries, Textures, and in some cases Morphs. IOW, any files you can't access directly through your Library. Everything else you can place wherever your little heart desires, and that option has been available for a long time.

    That said, DS only products don't have assets, other than Textures, that go into the Runtime, so they have to be placed in the same folders you find them in the zips or they won't work, or in some cases be seen, though even then I had the DS equivalents of an mt5/mc6 file in the same folder with the object it's intended for, again because I can access them directly.



  • @Miss-B I've been doing the same since Poser 8, Miss B.

    Now, I don't do it, but one COULD move all the folders. But, if you moved Geometries, textures and/or morphs, you would have to edit the paths in every file that uses them - all the files.

    I'm just saying you could move everything - it's just way more involved if you insist on moving geometries, textures and/or morphs.



  • @Glitterati3D Exactly, who wants to spend the time editing all those paths, so I leave them alone. I'm more interested in what I can access through the Library, and having it where I want it.

    Needless to say, I don't do that while beta testing for vendors because it defeats the purpose of finding errors, but once a product's in a final store version, I remove all the testing files and place the final versions where I want them.



  • @Glitterati3D said in How SM can turn Poser's market share around....:

    Now, I don't do it, but one COULD move all the folders. But, if you moved Geometries, textures and/or morphs, you would have to edit the paths in every file that uses them - all the files.

    Actually you don't with Poser, because I tried it that way. I hated having everything identified by vendor so I had a (massive) runtime where everything was by category (so V4 clothes went in a V4 clothes folder with the item name not the vendor name). If you tried to load an item it still loaded, it just took a second longer while Poser searched for the geometry.

    I stopped doing it for 2 reasons: firstly, third party stuff like clothes converter reads the .cr2 and it couldn't find the geometry so I had to locate it manually. That pretty much defeated the purpose of categorising the geometries. Secondly, when Poser searches it does so from top to bottom of the runtime, then top to bottom of your runtime list (if you have more than 1 runtime). So if I loaded a dress, Poser would search for the geometry. If the geometry it was seeking was called 'dress.obj' it would load it. I discovered a number of vendors named dresses 'dress' and you'd get the wrong geometry loading. It happened less than expected, but it did occur.
    Finally, with multiple runtimes, the geometry search gets a lot longer. Now, geometry and textures stay as they arrive, I tend to leave the materials folder unchanged as well, but I group object, morph and material files together now.



  • @piersyf I move everything except Geometry, Textures and Morphs into a single folder for the item. I really don't think there is anything I find more irritating than hoping to Characters, then Pose, then Hair, then back to Pose, then Materials to simply load and clothe a figure. All poses for a specific figure are put into the folder for THAT figure. Clothing, Materials, and things like shoe poses all go into a single folder. Hair and it's associated Materials and fits into a single folder.



  • With an intelligent database, all that moving would be pointless. I used to try to do something like that, but ran afoul of updates and shirts that fit Vikki 3 and Stephanie 3 and so on.

    Either way, if someone comes up with a GOOD content management system, they will surely gain market share over the others.


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    @Glitterati3D I do it the same way! :-)



  • @v3rlon said in How SM can turn Poser's market share around....:

    With an intelligent database, all that moving would be pointless. I used to try to do something like that, but ran afoul of updates and shirts that fit Vikki 3 and Stephanie 3 and so on.

    Either way, if someone comes up with a GOOD content management system, they will surely gain market share over the others.

    DAZ uses metadata (smart content) to do that. It never worked for me. With 4.8 I had to rebuild the metadata EVERY TIME I opened the program. Not happy.
    Poser does the same with tags. I tag stuff and can use the search function with selected tags and get only the things I want. Problem with that is that I have to do the tagging; there's no accepted 'language' for the tags and no vendors include them in the products.
    The potential is there, but you'll get a lot of resistance from people who are forced to use a particular model. Not everybody has the same workflow.
    I prefer Poser's library over Studio's because I can set it up the way I want, not the way I'm told to. I would resent your approach just as much as I resent DAZ's.



  • @Glitterati3D said in How SM can turn Poser's market share around....:

    I really don't think there is anything I find more irritating than hoping to Characters, then Pose, then Hair, then back to Pose, then Materials to simply load and clothe a figure.

    That's exactly why I quit using P5 back in the day, and switched to DS 2. I didn't know enough about setting up my content back then, and I'm not sure if P5 would've allowed me to do it.

    Poser grew up by relaxing the necessity to put what type of file in what folder, and the UI back then was horrific as far as having to "climb up out of" the Character folder to "dig down into" the Pose folder to set a pose, and then "climb up out of" the Pose folder to dress your Character, and then "dig down into" the Pose folder again to set the textures you wanted (assuming there was more than one in the set). You couldn't just click the appropriate Library icon you want like you do with the more current versions.

    Back then, more often than not P5 crashed when I tried rendering, but that may have been my old Win98SE desktop, as it wasn't anywhere as good as what's available now-a-days, so I did most of my 3D art on my WinXP laptop in DS until the poor thing died and I got this Win7 Pro and expanded my 3D apps to include Poser again.



  • @Miss-B Not until P8 could you change library locations. So, even if you understood library construct before then, you couldn't change it. A pose file not in the Pose folder just wouldn't show up until Poser 8.



  • @Glitterati3D Ahhh, so if I had gotten P7, then I would've still had the same mess as in P5. Now I'm glad I waited to get P9.



  • @piersyf
    DAZ uses a database (though it could be much better in my opinion). Postogre and Valentina are both database solutions. Tags that you use in Poser ARE metadata. Metadata like tags, file extension, date modified, and so on are things we use to make flat files mimic a database. A real database, properly implemented, is better than tags. Like broadband is better than dial up, even if you love your ISP, the broadband is just better in every way: faster, more robust, and more flexible for you.

    Imagine you had some directory that had all your characters
    NewGuy, OldGuy, SuperGuy based on new guy and so on. No looking for the !Mat file in the pose library after you didn't find SuperGuy in Figures, People, or Characters.

    Then you have a "directory" of clothes that work with SuperGuy that you can call up whenever you like. Ditto for hair. Meanwhile the artist for buzzcut has hair that works with both NewGuy and OldGuy, so that hair shows up in both "directories" without taking up double memory.

    Imagine searching through terabytes of content was faster than you could type. Is that more or less what you attempt to achieve with tags? Because a good database solution could.

    I am not saying this is the only solution, but the best I can think of. Either way, neither company does and adequate job of setting a new user up with content.



  • @v3rlon
    Like I said, the potential is there. To implement a database system would require a common and expandable language (so that new items will slip seamlessly into it) and then convince every single third party vendor to adopt it, or you're left doing it manually anyway. Metadata with keywords is probably as close as we'll get, and yes, that is what I attempt with tags. Outfits for a character get tags for the shoes so I don't have to duplicate them in the shoe folder for that character... no matter the runtime, or whether the shoes are part of an outfit or a solo product, set search for V4 shoes (as an example) and everything with that tag shoes up, and as fast as I can scroll through them it gets populated. The only pain is having to tag things in the first place.



  • @Glitterati3D Actually you could change library locations as long as you renamed the item to have the appropriate extension according to the library you put it in.

    This was a necessity back in the Poser 4 days since there was a limit to the number of folders you could have in a library. After a certain number the rest just wouldn't show in Poser. And around that time MAT poses became a thing so I remember having my Pose folder filled and renaming the extensions to .cm2 and .fc2 so I could store them in those libraries. P3DO even had a handy tool for doing that.

    Years later I had to go back and change them again when I wanted to reorganize my libraries after this restriction was lifted and even subfolders were implemented. It wasn't until BagginsBill made a useful library that I stopped using P3DO to organize, navigate and even open files in Poser.

    I think I spent an equal amount of time organizing libraries as I did using the program!



  • Easy answer, first part: there's no way to add a given feature that automatically brings a lot of new users, because the program is already very complicated, has a lot of features (many of which I don't touch as they sound scary) and a several hundred pages manual, so chances are new features will not be evident enough for new users to judge them.

    Second part: enhancing features or adding features is the way to preserve the existing user base and get $$ flow, and SM is already doing that well; like, the new morph tool is brilliant, and I'm happy I paid the $500 for the launch day upgrade that included it. But don't imagine a brand new user would invest that.

    Third part of the easy answer: provide a free version with limited functionality (and a much, much, much smaller manual). Free means tons of users, specially for something so easy to get initial results as poser.



  • Oh, and by the way, I don't read the manual as I buy a product to have fun, and not to spend the whole day reading a manual - I already do that at work quite a lotl



  • @fbs7 On the other hand, I refer to the manual all the time.



  • @fbs7 I find software without proper documentation an exercise in frustration.



  • @eclark1849 For me Poser is a different form of a game. I use it to make funny animations, like one replicating Carlitos' sketch "In the Circus" (a 3.5 minutes clip) with a penguin (including the tall hat, haha). I used Poser 4 and Poser 5 for years without ever touching the manual, because it was so easy to use. They were the most perfect paradigm of 3D animation as a game that I ever saw (way way simpler and better than Maya or Blender).

    Nowadays I don't know what's the point of half the options in the menu, like "Bake Transformations"... uh? I'm not cooking!... I'm not going to spend the neurons and time to find that thing in the manual, because I don't have much of either left. In today's market, a game that you need to read the manual to play is a game fated to be limited to a small audience, and in my view the same applies to Poser if Poser is intended to cater to a broader audience.

    By the way, that reminds me of "F-16 Falcon 4", a game that amazed pundits with its realism, but then gamers complained that "the real thing at least comes with a real manual", haha