All of the best features of Poser in one Animation - NSFW



  • Hey check this out. THought you might like to see this!

    Animation specs:

    • 100 frames, 15fps.
    • Motion of the plane done with Kinect mocap.
    • girl's bodies controlled by 'point at' modifiers; baked transforms to make it work with IK.
    • boobies done with combination of soft body and normal keyframing;
    • expressions done with normal keyframing.
    • Xtina's hair and bra done with Cloth Room.
    • All girls are Erogirl version of Project E.
    • Started in Poser pro Game dev, completed in Poser pro 11.
    • Rendered in Firefly

    High res (+sound) version found here:

    ***NSFW content***

    click to show

    ***NSFW content***

    click to show

    Poser is pretty friggin awesome guys, It could potentially surpass apps like 3DSMAX in usefulness for slapping together scenes like this in no time, but it does need work before that happens.

    Lessons learned and recommendations for Poser's Dev Team:

    • Let point at modifiers work with IK. Right now if I point the abdomen at something, the forearms disconnect from the hands. I have to bake the transforms, and dial the point at down, to get that to work normally. Its cumbersome, slows down the workflow (if you wanna edit something), results in keyframe bloat, and shouldn't be necessary, because the same rotations created by the point at feature, can also work with IK if baked as a keyframe.
    • Soft Body Bullet Physics could use some presets.
    • Variables seem arbitrary since similar settings work differently per character and per scene. Rather try work with scene scales and real-world jiggle / soft body dynamics.
    • The fact that more calculations per second results in less jiggle (as mentioned by chuck in the tutorial) seems counter-intuitive and illogical. Jiggle should be the same, except more accurate. More jiggle should come from settings like Linear Damping and Bounce. Ideally, more calculations per second should let a character pick her nose without her face exploding.
    • Cloth Room has issues with morphs (as mentioned in the manual). This becomes problematic when morphs respond to conforming rules. Caveat 1: the dynamics result needs those morphs reversed to work. That's a bit of an issue if there are several (and perhaps also with pre-transforms in a different order, caveat 2). Let the cloth room work on the mesh as-is.
    • Spawning prop out of the figure to use for cloth room is also difficult: the prop is not the same shape as the group you spawned it from. Caveat 3: it doesn't include the bends. Another caveat (4) is that you cannot reparent it to the figure because it gets repositioned, even if you move it a bit.
    • Another problem with using a prop is that you cannot lock the figure. Why would you wanna lock the figure? Well during Cloth Room sims, if the underlying figure has body controls like grasp or bend torso, they for some reason get doubled (caveat 5), but if you lock the figure to prevent that, the dynamics won't be able to load (caveat 6). I realize it might still be possible that they did load but would have to dial the dynamics to 1... but are you noticing a pattern here? All these caveats get a little tedious.
    • In Summary: Try to reduce the number of caveats in Poser, ie: "yes you can do that, but you have to consider this, that, this, that, oh and also this, because Poser..." Not everyone has the time to figure out Poser's temperament and development history. "What you see is what you get" is a very good philosophy to stick with, imo. So if a mesh has a certain shape in the scene, let that be the starting point for any edits, like cloth room, or extracting props, and don't let the artist spend hours trying to figure out how to outsmart Poser. Chuck's pre-transform addition was a step in the right direction (and should be the default imo). Let Soft Body on Pauline's boobies work the same like on V4's and Roxie's, regardless of polycount. Let it be determined by surface area and/or volume for example. And finally, let all bodyparts of the figure do what they want whilst being in IK mode without ripping apart at the joints, like with "point at" or constraints etc.

    • Motion Tracker request / new feature idea. As I understand, the Kinect Mocap is a dead end due to Kinect 1 being more-or-less decommissioned. Might I suggest adding a Motion Tracker instead? MAX, After Effects, Maya all have these features and shouldn't be impossible to make. Motion Tracker can be used with home-made video footage and just needs little markers like black marker spots or white stickers to work, and you can attach anything to it. It basically results in a bunch of keyframes that you can use on something in your scene. I just tried it using MAX's motion tracker for camera movements and its surprisingly useful.



  • @erogenesis The less jiggle makes sense when you consider the physics is making guesses as to what come next. So if I have a ball and throw it at a sheet, the ball moves 10" per frame and will be stopped by the mass of the sheet @ a rate of 7.5" per frame and gravity is in effect so it will also be moving towards the ground @ 16' per second ^2. The sheet will not move until the ball arrives. When the ball first hits the sheet it will displace it by up to 10". Now depending which object is calculated first (ball or sheet) will have an effect on the motion. Lets say the ball hits the sheet right at the end of it's 10" movement. The sheet will be told to move 10" based on the prior velocity of the ball. The next frame the ball will be told to lose 7.5" of velocity dropping to 2.5" the sheet will then find out the ball is no longer in contact and start to move back to its static pose. The next frame the ball loses all velocity and drops to the floor. The sheet will continue to move back to its static pose. Now instead of 1 calculation per frame we do 10. The movement of the ball will be reduced to 1" so now when the ball makes contact with the sheet the sheet will move 1" instead of 10".

    The example above is highly inflated in values to show the point. Most likely at that speed the ball would pass right through the sheet and nothing would be noticed. Which is a problem you can run into in the cloth room.

    Ideally Poser will focus on improvements to the motion side of things which will make a lot of people happy because even if you like conforming clothes have a constantly running cloth fitting will remove the issue with poke through. The cloth room was added in Poser 5 and at the time it would take hours to run. Now it can be in seconds (for the same scene) because the computers have advanced that much in speed. Now if Poser would go back an increase the capabilities of the existing rooms to add additional refinement to the existing tools that would be a killer upgrade.



  • @richard60 said in All of the best features of Poser in one Animation - NSFW:

    @erogenesis The less jiggle makes sense when you consider the physics is making guesses as to what come next. So if I have a ball and throw it at a sheet, the ball moves 10" per frame and will be stopped by the mass of the sheet @ a rate of 7.5" per frame and gravity is in effect so it will also be moving towards the ground @ 16' per second ^2. The sheet will not move until the ball arrives.

    Hm, are you sure? Because the way I see it, its a matter of intercepting and if the sheets intercepts the ball, the ball will have a vector velocity regardless of the impact physics and calculate it from there. The way the sheet react would still be according to the relationships its vertices have been assigned, which ideally would have their spacial distribution included. Whether or not the ball was intercepted wouldn't matter to how the mesh reacts, ideally. Of course the chance the ball gets intercepted is higher with higher rate of calculations, and the resulting impact dynamics would be more accurate, ie: the shape of the ball, but even if just one vertex of the ball is intercepted at any given velocity, that one velocity should be enough to make the sheet react.

    However I suppose the impact dynamics could be compared to a meteorite hitting a planet, the size matters, a small rock would wipe out a village, a 10km asteroid would mean the end of earth. So one vertex should ideally have very little impact compared to all the vertices of the ball... but considering this is a computer simulation, and they already know beforehand that chances are high for missing vertices like you say, I would assume they would be clever enough to estimate the 'force' of the impact by checking out the size and therefore momentum of the ball that that one intercepted vertex belongs to... and thereby roughly estimating what the actual impact would be like without having to calculate for the rest of the ball.

    But I am guessing that the point of impact sets of more accurate series of calculations, or at least, I presume that would be way more efficient.

    Ideally Poser will focus on improvements to the motion side of things which will make a lot of people happy because even if you like conforming clothes have a constantly running cloth fitting will remove the issue with poke through. The cloth room was added in Poser 5 and at the time it would take hours to run. Now it can be in seconds (for the same scene) because the computers have advanced that much in speed. Now if Poser would go back an increase the capabilities of the existing rooms to add additional refinement to the existing tools that would be a killer upgrade.

    Although they look awesome, I'm not a big fan of simulations because they take ages to plan and get right, and especially with all these caveats to consider, it just becomes laborious and time-consuming. But if they improve the efficiency, accessibility and intra-compatibility of said simulations within Poser, then I would be more likely to work more with sims. I see a lot of potential, not only for animations but also for making morphs. So yeah, its definitely something they should focus on (rather than making figures).



  • Can you share the soft dynamic settings you used on the boobies please?



  • @tastiger something along the lines of this:

    Coll Marg: 0.04
    Fric: 0.1
    Bounce: 1
    Lin Damp: 0.004
    Mass: 1
    Int Pres: 0.07
    Lin Stif: 0.8

    Gravity: -0.1

    Self-Constraint value around the boobies was about 0.23.

    The Internal pressure is the most important one here. However, PE Erogirl had a lot of polygons in her boobies and V4/Genesis will have way less compared. Internal Pressure would have to be lower I think. I'm even beginning to wonder if there's any point in having Internal Pressure because I had it set to zero in many other sims since and I cannot tell if there's any real value to it (I think the default setting isn't bad to begin with, depending on the mesh). Funny thing I discovered is that if I scale the scene to 1000% the soft body dynamics becomes easier to work with, and the results are more accurate too! Maybe I just had to turn the mass way down.

    In any case please watch @nerd3d 's video here:

    that was very helpful to me,



  • @erogenesis said in All of the best features of Poser in one Animation - NSFW:

    Funny thing I discovered is that if I scale the scene to 1000% the soft body dynamics becomes easier to work with, and the results are more accurate too!

    Interesting... I remember back in Poser 5, when Firefly had just been introduced, someone demonstrated that scaling the scene up made a raytraced render that used refraction less artifact-y. I suspect this is because third-party technology that's been bought in is often optimised to suit the usual mesh size in other applications. Poser's meshes are renowned for being tiny in comparison.



  • @englishbob lol that was the first thing I thought of too, and I tried it too. My results showed that the blotchy artifacts in a purely IDL lit scene in Firefly became smaller and therefore more visible, so not real improvement there.



  • First of all - this is AMAZING Ero! Very nicely done.

    However, how the hell did you figure all that out? I don't understand Poser enough to even fathom how you knew to use the 'point at' modifiers, or baking transforms. That seems to be the biggest hurdle for me (or any new person I'm sure), learning the software so you can use it to its full potential.

    Heck I still don't understand how to use the Superfly nodes to get the desired effects - some of you can make these extremely complicated nodes that look like rocket science to me.

    Again, amazing work my friend. I would love to be able to do what you have done. Would love to see more.



  • @Lotharen haha thanks so much Loth!

    How did I figure all that out? I guess farting around with Poser long enough will get you there haha. I guess my background with other apps has also given me the instinct to dig further into apps like Poser, and I've had a few math/programming classes in university. To me its all just maths and geometry. Anything can be told to point at, move along with, copy locations, and if you know things like momentum and inertia and gravity and projectile maths, then you'll see that Poser has actually been designed pretty nicely, except now they must also connect it to the usefulness part... ie: that it works logically, and that it also works with other parts of Poser... ahem!

    That said, not even I understand all of Poser as I am often corrected by some of the other clever people on this website. So honestly, the 'farting around' thing is probably my best explanation. Only by experimenting will you be able to find out what's possible. I rarely do tutorials as I just don't have the patience... only if I have a specific question will I bother with them. Never start a new scene without first having broken Poser a few times.



  • @erogenesis Impressive animation work erogenesis. Didn't understand one half of a third of the tricks listed in the making of this loop, but it's good to know the possibilities are there. But if you have some time, please share some tips on how you turned a hair model into a dynamic cloth sim. Thanks!



  • @krios said in All of the best features of Poser in one Animation - NSFW:

    @erogenesis Impressive animation work erogenesis. Didn't understand one half of a third of the tricks listed in the making of this loop, but it's good to know the possibilities are there. But if you have some time, please share some tips on how you turned a hair model into a dynamic cloth sim. Thanks!

    hey, sorry for responding so late!

    Its a hit or miss thing with cloth room and conformed hair figures sometimes. Simulating XTina's hair (blonde on the left) was not hard since it had a dedicated FBM for Xtina. I just constrained the top and let Cloth Room do the rest.

    Lali's hair (brunette in the middle) was a fail and that's why its pulled back. It started out ok, setting the constraints was also not easy for Lali's Hair because some hair figures have hair starting at the bottom of the skull, and those strands just fall away if you don't catch them. There is a trick to get them, and that is to let the fall away with a drape, stop before they disappear, and then select the vertices to constrain. Then you can reset the simulation and start again. But unfortunately there were other issues. It has more than one morph dialed in (other than the conforming FBM) and then the cloth room gets confused and results a bogus dynamic shape, probably trying to counter (or just flat out ignoring) the morphs dialed in. In any case I couldn't undo the bogus shape by simply reversing the other morphs, and then there's also load order to consider. Then I tried to spawn a prop out of Lali's hair but 1) Poser doesn't consider rotations/scaling with that, and 2) reparenting that prop to maintain its location is near impossible for some reason (even after activating-resetting all the dials, which is sometimes necessary to prepare Poser for a re-parenting job, even that didn't help). In short I was fiddling with her hair for hours, if I spent some more on it I might have managed, but I gave up because I wanted to do other things.

    In short, just play around until you either have what you want, or until you're within inches of killing yourself (a good time to stop) ;) There's plenty of little things that need improving in Poser that can make a huge difference, and in the previous paragraph alone there's a lot of information for the @Poser-Team to think about lol.



  • @erogenesis said in All of the best features of Poser in one Animation - NSFW:

    [...] setting the constraints was also not easy for Lali's Hair because some hair figures have hair starting at the bottom of the skull, and those strands just fall away if you don't catch them. There is a trick to get them, and that is to let the fall away with a drape, stop before they disappear, and then select the vertices to constrain. Then you can reset the simulation and start again.

    Here's how I do it, assuming the hair is made by the usual method of multiple long strips. I open the hair in UVMapper, and assign a new material to the top row of facets on each strip. They're much easier to select when viewed in UV map format. Then go through the usual steps of making a duplicate hair prop / figure that calls the modified geometry.

    Of course this new material won't be affected by the hair material settings, but it's easy enough to copy them across. You can even do it during the cr2 / hr2 editing process if you're familiar with the innards of library files.

    In the cloth room, when selecting the constrained vertices, use the select by material option.

    There will still be plenty of hit-or-miss steps in the process, but now at least your figure won't be tearing their hair out: only you. :)



  • Thank you for the pointers Ero & englishbob, most of it flew over my noob head.
    Will just come back and bug you guys when the time comes to try a dynamic hair.



  • @englishbob said in All of the best features of Poser in one Animation - NSFW:

    @erogenesis said in All of the best features of Poser in one Animation - NSFW:

    [...] setting the constraints was also not easy for Lali's Hair because some hair figures have hair starting at the bottom of the skull, and those strands just fall away if you don't catch them. There is a trick to get them, and that is to let the fall away with a drape, stop before they disappear, and then select the vertices to constrain. Then you can reset the simulation and start again.

    Here's how I do it, assuming the hair is made by the usual method of multiple long strips. I open the hair in UVMapper, and assign a new material to the top row of facets on each strip. They're much easier to select when viewed in UV map format. Then go through the usual steps of making a duplicate hair prop / figure that calls the modified geometry.

    Of course this new material won't be affected by the hair material settings, but it's easy enough to copy them across. You can even do it during the cr2 / hr2 editing process if you're familiar with the innards of library files.

    In the cloth room, when selecting the constrained vertices, use the select by material option.

    There will still be plenty of hit-or-miss steps in the process, but now at least your figure won't be tearing their hair out: only you. :)

    lol!

    But hey that is a clever way of doing things! Its much neater and more controlled, although I did have to add more of the crown because otherwise all I would see was her parting sticking out the top like some kind of wannabe mohawk, wlike the rest stuck to her like glue (a falloff zone might be nice, WM for clothroom regions perhaps?). But I retried the whole idea with your suggestion (in a more controlled environment, no morphs etc) and it worked much better! I'm now going to export all my girls' hair as separate OBJ props. I still find it silly that I cannot use spawn prop because Poser doesn't consider scaling a significant shape change to include in the resulting prop. Options @Poser-Team, options! Give us options.

    ***=NSFW content***

    click to show



  • @erogenesis said in All of the best features of Poser in one Animation - NSFW:

    [...] I retried the whole idea with your suggestion (in a more controlled environment, no morphs etc) and it worked much better!

    Cool, happy to help!

    @krios said in All of the best features of Poser in one Animation - NSFW:

    Will just come back and bug you guys when the time comes to try a dynamic hair.

    Bug away, by all means. Just bear in mind that there are no guarantees that a particular hair model will work as desired.



  • @erogenesis whenever I find a hair item that uses scaling as part of its fits for a different character, I create a magnet with the base centred on the hair prop's origin, and set the magnet zone's falloff to constant (I have a library pose which applies that, so I don't have to muck about with the inaccuracies of the falloff-zone editor, which originally used to helpfully limit the spline graph to between zero and one, so you could just delete the intermediate splines and drag the endpoints to the top), then spawn the magnet scaling as a morph, which Poser can't ignore when saving to the library.

    Yet another reason why I wrote my own library save and load routines. Whoever heard of leaving out important transformation channels (general and axial scales) when saving a pose?



  • @anomalaus said in All of the best features of Poser in one Animation - NSFW:

    @erogenesis whenever I find a hair item that uses scaling as part of its fits for a different character, I create a magnet with the base centred on the hair prop's origin, and set the magnet zone's falloff to constant...

    I have a different way: bug the Poser Team until they fix it :D lol

    @anomalaus said in All of the best features of Poser in one Animation - NSFW:

    Yet another reason why I wrote my own library save and load routines. Whoever heard of leaving out important transformation channels (general and axial scales) when saving a pose?

    Don't get me started on saving Poses. Ugh! Thank Jojo for @Netherworks Poserwriter!



  • @anomalaus said in All of the best features of Poser in one Animation - NSFW:

    @erogenesis whenever I find a hair item that uses scaling as part of its fits for a different character, I create a magnet with the base centred on the hair prop's origin, and set the magnet zone's falloff to constant

    I do something similar, but I find myself often just reworking figure hair, re-rigging if necessary, since "hair fits" are all-too-often a matter of quick-fixing what should be "re-rigged" or morphed by hand. I save the finished morph or save the re-rigged object and never go back to the base figure/object.

    PS - Your custom poses for stuff like this would be cool to see!


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