What's not useful in Poser?

  • The hair room is useful, just difficult and unreliable to make stuff in. This is hair room hair, draped with legacy draping.

    As far as legacy content, maybe split it. There is currently a legacy content download from the download manager iirc. Maybe split it up by poser version or groups of versions (v 1-3, 4-6, 7-9 etc) So we only have to download what we want. And those who have been around a while don't have to download what we already have. Just a thought.

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    Both rooms are very useful. They just need to be brought to "modern times".

    The hair room is good for Grass, Furr, Hair, a lot can be done in the hair room. It should only be modernised and be made more predictable.

    The faceroom could use a complete remake to get more control points, larger picture surface, and better texture matching.

  • A face room revamp is definitely needed. What is there now isn't real awesome. Fix the morph and photo fit features so that they work together as they should instead of mangling both. Alternatively, scrap the face room and instead provide similar morphs for each character in the Pose room; and then provide enhanced materials for characters that allow you to add makeup, eyeliner, blush, change eye color, etc etc, etc on the fly (perhaps by using layered materials or material masks). This approach could support ANY character. BUT ... you know what would REALLY be a cool feature in either the Pose Room or the Face Room? Add the ability to superimpose a photo over the document window in the face room or the pose room, and you can adjust the opacity of the photo overlay. Then you can load in a photo (say, front or side) and use parameter dials to dial in morphs to match the features on the photo overlay.

    Cloth Room: Real time dynamics would be nice.

    Hair room ... styling controls could stand improvement. Brush, comb, style, cut hair all that cool stuff.

    I already mentioned that the content library is really in need of paring. Some of that content is ancient (I don't even install most of it, I've only installed figures and clothing). Update UVs and textures, provide good Firefly/Superfly materials, etc. But get rid of items that are outdated and not worth updating.

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    Problem with removing features is that it potentially breaks someones workflow who actually does use it. Hair room is a good example. I have several products which rely on hair room, and i would like to keep using them. But it would definitely be a great thing if the UI is improved and additional styling controls are introduced.

    The same thing for bullet physics control. Some people use it, but the current implementation is very limited. I would love to see that developed further to make it useful and possibly integrate it with the cloth room.

    I guess it boils down to having the existing feature set improved - fixing bugs and adding new functionality.

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    @h.elwood.gilliland said in What's not useful in Poser?:

    So I guess I can mark down that the users had nothing useful to offer with respect to cleaning up Poser. Must be a perfect tool.... :D

    Honestly the best way to clean up Poser is to fix the long-standing issues that many of us have been asking to be fixed for years. Along with adding instancing, adding features that make the cloth and hair rooms easier and more useful, give us TRUE unimesh technology so that we don't have to rely on antiquated grouping anymore, refine the rigging tools, fix the setup room so that entering it to adjust or add to a rig doesn't break all our previous work once we've exited it, give us proper geometry grafting so that we can add body parts to existing figures that aren't split at the seams and that adapt to existing weight maps. Fix IK system along with better animation tools. The list goes on. This is how to clean up Poser.

  • @wimvdb Yes, we are very much aware of that potential. Information I glean here goes into a proverbial "research" folder, to be considered and explored fully before any action is taken.

  • The best way to clean up what is not useful is to add a new version. So add a Hair room 2 or face room 2 and after a couple of versions delete the old version. Much like was done with the old Poser 4 render engine. It was an option after Firefly was added, but removed a couple three versions later.

  • Poser 1 to 5 figures are not useful anymore because outdated. Realy, those are content ballast, that should go over board. If someone urgently needed it, he can use the content from previous installs.

  • I had my hesitations on this thread. I like to talk about solutions, not about problems. There is a saying in Dutch: 'not known is not appreciated', and this could easily end up in yet another bashing party.
    With the thread being started by a Poser team member (welcome to our discussions, but who are you? An introduction would be appreciated), and response from community members abundant as it is, let me add my 2 cents.

    I agree with the comments on the legacy content. Keep offering that in an optional download. Sure quality may not be as one would expect it today for front line figures but waht is there may still serve for background or small size work. Focal depth is such a wonderful tool. Just do not force people to load Dork if they want Pauline.
    Why not just make bundles based on figure or item and offer on CP: The P6Jessi bundle; the P7 Simon bundle; as a download-and-install-in-a-Runtime? Put a purchase price, but valid serial for Poser 6 (Poser 7 for Simon) and up serves as voucher. Updates, should one come, can go out as any CP product update. Thus: those who want it can have it, those who are entitled can have it for free, and those not interested are not bothered.

    I also agree with the comments made on the face-, cloth- and hair rooms. Yes they need a version 2 to bring them from Poser 5 time state of the art to Poser 12 state of the art. Good thing with them is they are a room you can open by selecting a tab, or just ignore them. A new room can be built without bothering the old one. once released, an option 'show tab for old cloth room' can be a setting in the user preferences. Once the new room is up and running support for the old one can be phased out.

    What needs discussion is the old 'core' tools. They are not always kept up to date with technology added over the latest vesions. An example is 'replace body part with prop'. This feature can be very convenient but last time I used it it broke up with a weight mapped figure. Can 'replace body part with prop' be removed? For the implementation as it is (was? I did not test recently), I would say yes. Do we want to miss the functionality? No!
    Same holds for the genitalia option. Is it useful to be able to swap the anatomical body shape with a sort of 'spandax' shape that can be used for a 'second skin' ? Certainly. The differences, both for male and for female figures, are too large to overcome by morphing while keeping acceptable UV mapping.
    A check of the support tickets I think will give a clear view of what works and what does not work.

  • Yeah, I've avoided commenting on this thread too. Identifying things that aren't needed is not the same as identifying what I might use if it worked.

  • @masterstroke said in What's not useful in Poser?:

    Poser 1 to 5 figures are not useful anymore because outdated. Realy, those are content ballast, that should go over board. If someone urgently needed it, he can use the content from previous installs.

    I actually use poser 5 woman (Judy) and man (Don) all the time; there are very practical low-poly option for secondary characters in the scene.

  • @h.elwood.gilliland said in What's not useful in Poser?:

    @fbs7 If there are no Metaballs, then that isn't something we could called useless & orphaned or obsolete.

    Yeah, kinda; but I used to have metaballs up to Poser 6, then Poser 7 broke the WeirdJuice API thingie.

    Now I'm metaballess... :-(

  • @vilters said in What's not useful in Poser?:

    The hair room.

    Like the faceroom, it dates back to Poser5.

    How many actually "use" the hair room on a daily basis, and get decent and reproducible results?
    "As it is", and we are in 2017 after all, it is more a "hit and run room".

    Hair room, remove or bring to 2017 standards.

    I've not used the hair room in the last 10 years because rendering is so odd - preview is ugly beyond horrible, and rendering is always artificial, too shiny and bright - at least to what I tried to do. You need to have like 200,000 hairs to get something near presentable, and then rendering gets disgustingly slow.

    On the other hand transmap hair looks great in preview and render, you have excellent control of the result, and is amazingly fast. And with the morph tool you have some pretty decent option to simulate dynamics.

    Talking of which, in the past I did experiments with soft body simulation on transmap hairs, and they actually worked great. You just used a strength map to smoothly transition to soft body on the ends, set your collision objects, and that's it - easy peasy dynamic hair on a transmap prop.

  • I just thought of something else that isn't real useful because it seems to be pretty borked.

    Universal Poses. They aren't universal.

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    @Deecey No but they do serve as a decent starting point a lot of the time.

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    Time to clean up the Weblinks in the help menu.

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    @h.elwood.gilliland There are things built into Poser which could and should be useful, but which are buggy or broken. The hair design tools and hair dynamics have never worked as intended, therefore few people use them, so they could count as "useless" in the sense of "largely unused". That doesn't mean we users want to see dynamic hair fully expunged from Poser. Right now we have dynamic hair that's really kind of cruddy -- but it's better than nothing. Dynamic hair in Poser is broken, oh so broken. We would actually like to see it fixed, made useful and finally able to live up to the potential we were promised.

    There are other buggy, broken, or dysfunctional features in Poser which represent the same basic problem. Dynamic hair is a biggie, because it has never, ever, ever worked as advertised. Poser has been sold with dynamic hair listed there in its feature set for over a decade. We've sort of been promised dynamic hair. But we've never been given working dynamic hair. Where's my dynamic hair, there, pal? Eh? Eh?

    Seriously, though, one of Poser's biggest problems, in the view of this longtime user, is that so many things are never broken and are never fixed. A cleanup and bug-fix release would be great, insofar as it might deliver to us a Poser that we've been promised for years and years. But that won't help Poser going forward. It might be time to burn the whole thing down and re-brand "Poser" as a virtual toaster app for handheld fondlebricks.

    (Note: Please don't re-brand Poser as a virtual toaster app. We really do love Poser. Really, we do.)

  • @h.elwood.gilliland If research is what you and the Poser team are after, maybe you should concern yourself more with why some people have actually stopped using Poser and moved on to something else. In most cases, from everything I have been reading in the forums here at SM, Rendo, RDNA, and even at DAZ, in most cases people leave Poser or don't recommend it to new people because not because they think the features Poser has are useless and need t be removed, it's because they're difficult to use and figure out.

    Unless someone at SM is going to start teaching a Poser Master class via webinar every week, I think better documentation and presets is essential. Poser has always had better documentation than Studio, still does, but it reads like a technical encyclopedia. It may tell you that water is wet, shiny, and blue, but there's nothing anywhere that shows you how to set that up in the material room.

    As a result the Material room is a nightmare for some and a complete mystery to others. I know of at least one or two longtime content creators who used to make content for Poser that have basically abandoned Poser content in favor of Daz Studio primarily because of the Material Room. These are Prop and environment content creators, so Genesis has nothing directly to do with it.

  • @eclark1849 said in What's not useful in Poser?:

    Unless someone at SM is going to start teaching a Poser Master class via webinar every week, I think better documentation and presets is essential. Poser has always had better documentation than Studio, still does, but it reads like a technical encyclopedia. It may tell you that water is wet, shiny, and blue, but there's nothing anywhere that shows you how to set that up in the material room.

    If I may interject ... I think users would get more out of a material library that they can pick apart and experiment with, rather than expanding on the documentation. This, of course, considering that there are dozens and dozens and dozens of material nodes that would need to have expanded information, and it would add considerably to the size of the documentation which is already over 1000 pages. Yowza.

    Add to that, there are an endless number of combinations that can achieve similar effects and it would be next to impossible to document them all.

    A material repository, either furnished with Poser or one that is community-driven and accessible would be an awesome solution to this.

  • @Deecey I don't have a problem with anyone experimenting with material nodes. In fact I encourage it. But case in point, look at what Ghostship has done. He has in fact set up a small material library using Superfly shaders and he has given them out for free at Share CG. So how did he figure it out? Well, I'm sure some experimentation was involved, but I also know he watched a lot of Blender Guru videos from Andrew Price on You tube. Not from the Poser Reference Manual.

    I learned how to set up volumetric atmospheres in Poser. Not from the reference manual, but from watching a video by Nerd 3D on Youtube again.