The future of Poser is the Fitting Room



  • Right now there are three figures that are getting made for Poser: PE, Venus (and Orion) and Bella. As far as I can tell they're all looking good and are promising. Great, right?

    Not so fast. Vendors are going to have a heck of a time trying to choose. PE is not even out and the main discussion is vendor support. Providing support for one figure is a challenge enough, what base morphs should they incorporate? Which JCMs? Has the figure been designed well? Will it last? Will there be changes made that will force the vendor to make updates? Am I wasting my time? Are people going to like the figure at all... and that times three! Hence the predicted "wait and see" mode, beyond the enthusiasts of course. I'm doing my best to make this all easier, but man I wish I could just concentrate on PE's shapes instead.

    This sucks big time for artists and vendors alike and I'll tell you why. Not only do they need to wait for the vendor to make a decision, the figures they buy won't be the best they could get either. I cannot be spontaneous with PE. Everything with PE is super well planned and deliberate, a LOT of thinking goes into this figure... (and there probably still will be issues). I am concentrating so much on support and compatibility that I'm almost forgetting what the figure SHOULD be for: art! I'd rather be concentrating on her beauty, her shapes and bends, not her compatibility.

    My private comic figure, the 110K mesh4.5 is amazing, you know why?, because it doesn't suffer such limitations. I can do what I want, when I want, without thinking whether or not it will be a problem for vendors or other users. Its development is spontaneous and organic, I make stuff for it when I need it, and I adapt the clothing on the fly. It changes all the time. ALL the time! I cannot do this with pe.mesh5, change the rig half way, add new JCMs, change the base shape, or vendors will freak out and not support her anymore. I see things every day I wanna update, but ugh, PE will never be released if I did. Everything needs to be planned 10 steps ahead, 5 years ahead, that is hard to do because there are so many factors, styles and tastes to consider, and that is stifling, and it slows us all down, which is why artists will not get the best figure that we could potentially make. Project E is probably better than anything else at the moment, but it sucks that I cannot just spontaneously add stuff when I want.

    Vendors probably have the very same problem, in that they're also limited to what they can make. How many figures do they need to consider supporting? What will the item need to do. How many updates need to be done. I recently released TaB for DS and it was the worst idea in the world. DAZ are so hyperactive they pump out new tech every year and change the renderer and basically do whatever they want. Its hard to keep up with those guys, especially if you're a Poser guy. Old stuff doesn't work anymore and within an hour of G8's release you'll get questions about whether or not you're going to update your product for it. You cannot get on with the thing you like the most: designing stuff. You're constantly running after the whims (or lack of whims) of some company. (to be fair DAZ are making it easier, but not for Poser-borne designs)

    Now imagine vendors and artist don't need to worry about compatibility? Imagine a vendor can just make a garment, provide general fits, and let the user rig the item with Poser, to whatever figure the user so desires. This is great for artists, because they then don't have to wait for vendors, and vendors can pump out more fun stuff instead of having to update their stuff all the bloody time. And figure creators don't need to worry about vendors freaking out if you change something essential about a figure.

    Smith Micro need to weaponize Poser's fitting room and fast. Let vendors just provide the base model, with perhaps options on sizes. And then:

    • You have an option for dynamic clothing by default
    • Fitting room rigs clothing either according to template (provided by figure creators)
    • Or according to the figure:
      • Cloth room / soft body physics is used to calculate realistic fits for all the morphs in the host figure.
      • results become FBMs that conform
    • This all happens automatically. Its not an unrealistic idea, because I do it all the time, and all my steps can be easily automated.
    • Also, the "copy morphs from" feature needs to become more accurate. As in it can copy the shape of the flagella on the bacteria between a figures's teeth accurate. THAT accurate! (talk to Color Curvature, he knows how to do this).
    • Transfer of WM needs to be super accurate too, like exact. And it also needs to be modular. Options to just copy the centers of a specified body part, of just the WM...
    • JCMs need to be labelled as a default part of the rig, and included in a 'transfer rig' feature.

    Of course if users don't want to rig the item, vendors could still do it, but the whole point it that we need to eliminate, automate, or reduce this peristent fear and discussion of support for a figure, because guys, when nature made the beautiful human, it didn't give a fat flying f**k about whether or not Armani would be able to make clothing for it or not...

    Do you agree or do you agree?



  • BTW my mannequin idea is a step in this direction already. I hope SM will pick it up and exploit the crap out of it.

    We need to reduce it all so we can concentrate fully on the things we're good at: making pretty girls, making nice clothing, etc.

    PS: copying WM from the host needs to also consider volume, items that have vertices far from the body, like hair or jackets.



  • @erogenesis There are 2 very important considerations you need to make to get your figure off the ground and they both have nothing to do with clothing.

    It's the character/texture artists you need to address first and foremost. A pretty girl, that doesn't look like your girl will sell your girl the fastest. What she's wearing is an afterthought to most customers.

    Where character artists are concerned, there are 2 major considerations you need for success:

    1. these vendors have a tremendous investment in merchant resources. They are not going to reinvest for your figures.

    2. these vendors have a process for creating figures that works for them. Time is money. Don't ask them to change their process for your figure or it will be met with fierce resistance. See the lip mask/no mask discussion on this forum.



  • @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Where character artists are concerned, there are 2 major considerations you need for success:

    1. these vendors have a tremendous investment in merchant resources. They are not going to reinvest for your figures.

    2. these vendors have a process for creating figures that works for them. Time is money. Don't ask them to change their process for your figure or it will be met with fierce resistance. See the lip mask/no mask discussion on this forum.

    Ehm, I was making a case for exactly this. Everything needs to become easier, I was just focusing on clothes. Ok you're talking about morphs and shapes, but that can be copied across easily if the copy morphs function was better. The whole point is that nobody needs to do anything extra, Poser should and could potentially do everything for you.

    This is a good example of how a figure creator needs to think of EVERYTHING beforehand, or someone will catch them out instantly. This is why PE needs to be perfect, even as a simple test figure.

    PS: maybe we could even think of something for textures, matching UVs maybe? but this is just brainstorming. The general idea is: try to reduce the whole compatibility issue.



  • @Glitterati3D PS: do you think my idea for the clothing is a good idea?



  • @erogenesis

    The fitting room does not create commercial quality content. It's OK for personal use, but for commercial quality stuff I wouldn't even think about it.

    The first thing that needs to be fixed is when you save a figure that is rigged inside the Setup or Fitting room, it saves an OBJ file that is not split at the seams, does not contain extra vertices, and has the same vertex count and vertex order as the original OBJ.



  • @erogenesis You point, then, appears to be lost by the title to your post and the fact that it's TL;DR.

    A character artist does not use the fitting room.

    And, I am not being ugly, just giving your some facts. What I see in your renders, as a vendor, is ill fitting clothing with lots of pokethrough, textures stretched beyond recognition, and textures that have been in use on cheap clothing for too many years. Those are not commercial quality. There's no clothing vendor, worth their value who would submit those conversions to a store. First, they wouldn't call them commercial quality, and second they would never pass QA in a reputable brokerage.



  • @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @erogenesis

    The fitting room does not create commercial quality content. It's OK for personal use, but for commercial quality stuff I wouldn't even think about it.

    The first thing that needs to be fixed is when you save a figure that is rigged inside the Setup or Fitting room, it saves an OBJ file that is not split at the seams, does not contain extra vertices, and has the same vertex count and vertex order as the original OBJ.

    Which is why I say: weaponize the fitting room. Make it really smart. I use it all the time and sure its not amazing, but its that bad either. Yes there are instances where you need to fix things, which is why vendors might still have to do the rigging themselves, but it need to be easier.

    Ideally I envision something like this:

    • Go to library
    • drag vendor prop onto figure
    • Poser asks: do you want to rig this to PE?
    • yes
    • done

    In the meanwhile, Poser picked up on the morph to fit to PE (because the vendor provided it), Poser kept all the morphs the vendor provided, like open shirt or something, then its gone through the cloth room behind the scenes, for example, and the cloth room has returned FBMs, JCMs and perhaps helped refine the WM to work with the figure. There are ways of doing this pretty cleverly. Color Curvature made scripts that did the pre transform thing years back and he did it using iterations. Itrations can slim the WM of a piece of clothing to a certain distance from the host figure and perhaps with certain pre-set angles refine these bends. Etc etc. Its just ideas, but I;m positive something can be done. Vendors might have to step in here and there, but it can be automated here and there.



  • @erogenesis It already IS that easy.

    I have the base rig in a piece of clothing within 10 minutes with Copy Joints From.

    That's not where the talent comes in. The talent comes from a vendor who takes the time to check and refine every joint, every morph, every bend, twist and side-side rotation. And then, when that is done, you repeat the process for every morph.

    That takes eyes and time. And you can't automate it. Because it depends on the model, the modeling, the density of the model, and on and on and on.



  • @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    The talent comes from a vendor who takes the time to check and refine every joint, every morph, every bend, twist and side-side rotation. And then, when that is done, you repeat the process for every morph.

    Yup.



  • Ok, do yo guys firstly agree that it would be awesome if this while compatibility thing could be reduced? My guess is yes, because I would find it strange if you wouldn't want this to happen.

    So, now how could we do this? My idea is stated above. I think out of the box, and fair enough, according to you it will not work at all. I think there's potential to speed things up, great potential. Cloth room could play a big role in this. Yes I remember you picked on that bad example I posted (which btw is the same as some vendors to it), thank you for reminding me.

    But ok that's my idea...

    How would you do it then? What would you recommend? Try be positive.



  • @erogenesis I would do it the same way I do it every day. By taking the time to rig my products to the best of my ability.

    I think the part you are missing is automation doesn't work because every model is different. Every modeler is different. You can't automate that for commercial quality conversions. Don't believe me? See WW and Crossdresser conversions.

    Those conversions may work for you, for your purposes. They will not ever work for a vendor and QA at a quality brokerage.



  • @erogenesis said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Ok, do yo guys firstly agree that it would be awesome if this while compatibility thing could be reduced?

    Yes and no.

    As much as I would like to see more automated ways to convert content, I can't think of a single "automated" method that addresses every single issue that needs to be addressed in releasing commercial content. Things you have to think about ...

    .... If the figures have different grouping, they will have to be regrouped in the fitting room, and automatic grouping usually sucks.
    .... Unless the shapes of the two figures are similar, UV mapping in the clothing will become distorted.
    .... Morph transfer will get you part of the way there, but I have yet to see clean morph transfers in any automated method. The best results are usually with Dimension3D's "Morphing Clothes."
    .... As Glitterati mentioned, the process is not over after you convert the clothing. If you want to release it as a commercial product, every joint rotation for every morph has to be checked and tweaked. There is no automatic way to do this.

    As ambitious as your idea is, nothing can replace taking the time to do it manually.



  • @Deecey And I would add that the worst conversions I see/attempt is when converting something rigged with spherical rigging converted to weight map rigging. Almost without fail, the conversions are unusable.



  • Anyway, moving on. I'm just trying to come up with something useful.

    Yes, fair enough, a nice piece of clothing does require more detailed work in making sure all of it bend nicely. Not all vendors pay that much attention to this, but its great if vendors do. In the meanwhile, much can still be automated IMO:

    • Parking the prop file plus morphs on a figure and making it inherit the rig in one go (as opposed of going through the setup room or fitting room)
    • refining can happen thereafter (groupings have to go anyway) (BTW, what if it could all be done in the pose room, like the morph editor? No fitting room but a fitting editor, that would be cool!)
    • original morphs are maintained all the time
    • a feature that runs the item through the cloth room to make it endure pre-defined angles to help refine the bends even more
    • the same feature helps make nice FBMs for the item, like cloth suspended between bigger boob morphs

    and that's just for clothing. UV maps and texture transfers can also work this way. The figure creator can use a tool to make a template, and then refine that template like blacksmith3D does. And yes, yes, yes, yes yes I know there's always a refining you have to do with regards to clothing. I regret not making a big point of that in the first post, but at least we can try to speed some of it up.



  • @Glitterati3D
    Another good point.
    When you're converting non-weight mapped clothing to a weight-mapped figure, that's another thing that has to be checked and tweaked.



  • Ok now lets think positive. What ideas do you have?



  • @erogenesis said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Not all vendors pay that much attention to this, but its great if vendors do

    Sorry, but this is just not true. Perhaps it was true with V4 whose bends were so bad there was no making them look decent, but I don't know a single vendor who doesn't take great care to ensure their clothing bends, twists and rotates beautifully.


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    That's why I wrote some time ago: If you need to write a manual on how your figure works?
    You are too far away from "standard operating procedures" for most vendors to become economically profitable overnight.
    It will also make any support item created for PE harder to use on other figures because either vendors have to "add, or remove" too many things.

    That and: The way some sites are pushing vendors in "their" direction.

    On the Poser side of things :

    • Never forget that you have at least a 10 year backlog against V4.
      If more then 3 clicks are needed to convert something, and it does not work the first few times for an average home alone Poser end user? (The one that never reads a readme because he/she already had 10.000+ of those to read) She's history.

    Another discussion here was on "old tech V4".
    V4 is not old tech at all.
    Only her rigging became obsolete over time, and that's been taken care of multiple times.

    The only "old tech" that's left over is her too high polycount that does not "fit" modern SubD and MicroHD morphs any more. Customers HAVE to use her "as is" because a) no way to reduce polygons easy, and b) too dense when SubD.

    While your demo renders look very good, with a lot of "flesh detail", I fear the PE "handbrake" to modern technology is gonna be the high polycount.

    What you certainly are gonna need right from the start, and what is often forgotten, are multiple high quality texture sets.
    => The quality of a rendered picture comes from the texture set.

    A mesh is only the coathanger to hang the textures on; And any mesh can be morphed by anybody with a mouse.
    The rig has to give realistic bending, but the final quality of the "rendered output"? => Comes from the textures.

    +/-70.000 polygons is a "time proven" concept.
    But it's the only thing that's 10 years old.
    All the rest moved forward.

    END USER FRIENDLY should be hammered in STONE.

    What's the difference between old and obsolete content and "modern" visually acceptable content?
    (Remember, I am in this "game" from Poser 1.)
    Uv_Unwrapping and texture quality.

    Even from "old and obsolete content" the mesh can always be recovered, properly grouped and welded, Unwrapped properly, textured properly and chased through the fitting room.

    The Fitting room basics.
    Only requires some basic knowledge to work properly.

    • A properly grouped and welded obj file
    • The "clothing to fit" HAS to have +/- the same polygon density as the donor figure to get an optimum result.
    • Fine tuning tools are provided inside the Fitting room.

    And if all else fails? Do a "pre-fitting" in an outside 3D app like Blender or equivalent, and only use the Fitting room to transfer the rig. (And replace the obj file with the good one after the save to Library. Don't be left with unwelded obj files).

    That's all end users need to get a good fitting room result.



  • So yeah, those are my ideas.

    Thanks for your input Vilters.

    I think I'm gonna go back to making a Poser figure now :P or render something fun for my fans...