The future of Poser is the Fitting Room



  • And simple example#2. Having control over which materials are solid BEFORE the morph is created lends better results with buttons and other hard objects.

    Copy Morphs on left; Morphing Clothes on right.

    0_1502810128654_button.png



  • @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    And simple example#2. Having control over which materials are solid BEFORE the morph is created lends better results with buttons and other hard objects.

    Copy Morphs on left; Morphing Clothes on right.

    0_1502810128654_button.png

    I have to ask (from my perspective) a really dumb question.

    Why on earth do vendors insist on making things like buttons part of the base .obj of a piece of clothing?

    If the button is a separate prop, you never actually have to worry about how the button is effected by clothing conversion programs.



  • @ssgbryan although not the biggest issue in the world, from an artist's perspective (or just for me) I would find that annoying and impractical. In a full scene I try to reduce clutter in the hierarchy and also reduce the number of accidentally clickable items, especially for something as insignificant as a button. Regarding morphs, if you have it on jeans for example, you'd have to programme it quite complexly to follow an 'open fly' morph. With P11 this might not be such an issue since you can also morph the prop along with the figure through GoZ, but still its extra clutter for no real reason and P11's GoZ feature is very unstable for me with props (unless SR7 fixed that?). So just making sure the button doesn't go all skwonk makes things easier... for me then.

    And yes, like you read below, FBMs would become a pain in the butt to programme along to as well.



  • @ssgbryan said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    And simple example#2. Having control over which materials are solid BEFORE the morph is created lends better results with buttons and other hard objects.

    Copy Morphs on left; Morphing Clothes on right.

    0_1502810128654_button.png

    I have to ask (from my perspective) a really dumb question.

    Why on earth do vendors insist on making things like buttons part of the base .obj of a piece of clothing?

    If the button is a separate prop, you never actually have to worry about how the button is effected by clothing conversion programs.

    A valid question, I suppose. If the button is a smart prop, it would load based on the default OBJ (probably, I'd have to confirm on a morphed OBJ but I think this will be the case). So if you have a figure that has different proportions, the button prop would have to be translated to the new position. If the clothing has multiple buttons (such as a shirt having buttons in the front, on the cuffs, etc) that would be multiple translations. Either that, or you'd have to add the morphs to the smart prop as well. Easier to do it all at once, so you include the buttons in the base OBJ and (by extension) the character morph.



  • @Deecey Not to mention sitting in the floor like melted wax after a cloth sim.



  • @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @Deecey Not to mention sitting in the floor like melted wax after a cloth sim.

    There's a solution for that. In the Cloth Room, use the "Cloth Groups" section to assign the button material to a Rigid Decorated Group before simulating. That is, presuming that the buttons are a part of the clothing to begin with. I don't think that would work if the buttons are a separate smart prop. Nothing to tell it what it is supposed to be a rigid part of. 8-)



  • @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    That is, presuming that the buttons are a part of the clothing to begin with. I don't think that would work if the buttons are a separate smart prop. Nothing to tell it what it is supposed to be a rigid part of. 8-)

    Hehe that's what I was about to ask! Maybe it does listen to the host figure?



  • @Deecey I know that. The problem is that most cloth room users don't know that.



  • @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    A valid question, I suppose. If the button is a smart prop, it would load based on the default OBJ (probably, I'd have to confirm on a morphed OBJ but I think this will be the case). So if you have a figure that has different proportions, the button prop would have to be translated to the new position. If the clothing has multiple buttons (such as a shirt having buttons in the front, on the cuffs, etc) that would be multiple translations. Either that, or you'd have to add the morphs to the smart prop as well. Easier to do it all at once, so you include the buttons in the base OBJ and (by extension) the character morph.

    Easier for you, not easier for me.

    It doesn't have to be a smart prop - if I am putting a shirt on a normal sized figure (not the default amazons we seem to be saddled with), the spacing will either change, or I will need fewer buttons (just like real life). If I am moving the clothing content to a child (In my Trek universe, people have families), I'll need fewer buttons.

    I would much rather move uncrushed buttons myself.

    And Glitterati3D - why would I put the buttons on before I did a clothing sim?



  • @ssgbryan Because not everyone is you. Not everyone understands how to use the cloth room effectively. Not all brokerages would accept such sloppy rigging.

    The reasons are numerous and as diverse as your reasons for what you do and how you do it.

    And, no, smart props do not obey morphs.



  • @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @ssgbryan Because not everyone is you. Not everyone understands how to use the cloth room effectively. Not all brokerages would accept such sloppy rigging.

    The reasons are numerous and as diverse as your reasons for what you do and how you do it.

    And, no, smart props do not obey morphs.

    @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @ssgbryan Because not everyone is you. Not everyone understands how to use the cloth room effectively. Not all brokerages would accept such sloppy rigging.

    The reasons are numerous and as diverse as your reasons for what you do and how you do it.

    And, no, smart props do not obey morphs.

    And everyone doesn't stay a beginner forever. At some point, we have to let go of the Poser 4 workflow.



  • @ssgbryan This has NOTHING to do with Poser 4. Good GAWD, can you be any more insulting for no reason?



  • @ssgbryan said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @ssgbryan Because not everyone is you. Not everyone understands how to use the cloth room effectively. Not all brokerages would accept such sloppy rigging.

    The reasons are numerous and as diverse as your reasons for what you do and how you do it.

    And, no, smart props do not obey morphs.

    @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @ssgbryan Because not everyone is you. Not everyone understands how to use the cloth room effectively. Not all brokerages would accept such sloppy rigging.

    The reasons are numerous and as diverse as your reasons for what you do and how you do it.

    And, no, smart props do not obey morphs.

    And everyone doesn't stay a beginner forever. At some point, we have to let go of the Poser 4 workflow.

    This doesn't really have to do with sticking with a Poser 4 workflow, though. (Dynamics were introduced in Poser 5). So allow me to ask this question. If you are using dynamic clothing and don't have the buttons on, I'm assuming you are working with stills. You simulate the clothing and then add your buttons to the final rendered frame.

    But suppose you are doing an animation. How would you handle the buttons in that case? It seems to me that each one would HAVE to be a smart prop, and each button would have to be a separate smart prop so that it could move individually. That can get pretty hairy, IMO.



  • hopefully, with a improved Fitting Room (and Copy Morphs function) this button example wouldn't have to be an issue. But yeah there are many workarounds. Fix the morphs manually, run it through the clothsim with the right groupings specified, or indeed just spawn a prop out of it using the group editor, if you're ok with manually moving it around, then definitely do so. I sometimes spawn props from figures, like glasses, or bracelets, or even guns, sometimes purely to get rid of a figure hierarchy of about 5 entries. But it also depends on the purpose and the scope of this button, and how much it is in focus, and how much work it needs... if the button played a central role in one of my comics, I might actually do the same and convert it into a prop. For the rest would just leave it as part of the clothing, and post work it if I need to.



  • @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @ssgbryan said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @ssgbryan Because not everyone is you. Not everyone understands how to use the cloth room effectively. Not all brokerages would accept such sloppy rigging.

    The reasons are numerous and as diverse as your reasons for what you do and how you do it.

    And, no, smart props do not obey morphs.

    @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @ssgbryan Because not everyone is you. Not everyone understands how to use the cloth room effectively. Not all brokerages would accept such sloppy rigging.

    The reasons are numerous and as diverse as your reasons for what you do and how you do it.

    And, no, smart props do not obey morphs.

    And everyone doesn't stay a beginner forever. At some point, we have to let go of the Poser 4 workflow.

    This doesn't really have to do with sticking with a Poser 4 workflow, though. So allow me to ask this question. If you are using dynamic clothing and don't have the buttons on, I'm assuming you are working with stills. You simulate the clothing and then add your buttons to the final rendered frame.

    But suppose you are doing an animation. How would you handle the buttons in that case? It seems to me that each one would HAVE to be a smart prop, and each button would have to be a separate smart prop so that it could move individually. That can get pretty hairy, IMO.

    Parent them to the item.

    I hate smart props with a passion - they are fantastic, if the vendor has thought of every possible use for it.

    Unfortunately, 90% of my smart props are parented to the right hand only.



  • @ssgbryan said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @ssgbryan said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @ssgbryan Because not everyone is you. Not everyone understands how to use the cloth room effectively. Not all brokerages would accept such sloppy rigging.

    The reasons are numerous and as diverse as your reasons for what you do and how you do it.

    And, no, smart props do not obey morphs.

    @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @ssgbryan Because not everyone is you. Not everyone understands how to use the cloth room effectively. Not all brokerages would accept such sloppy rigging.

    The reasons are numerous and as diverse as your reasons for what you do and how you do it.

    And, no, smart props do not obey morphs.

    And everyone doesn't stay a beginner forever. At some point, we have to let go of the Poser 4 workflow.

    This doesn't really have to do with sticking with a Poser 4 workflow, though. So allow me to ask this question. If you are using dynamic clothing and don't have the buttons on, I'm assuming you are working with stills. You simulate the clothing and then add your buttons to the final rendered frame.

    But suppose you are doing an animation. How would you handle the buttons in that case? It seems to me that each one would HAVE to be a smart prop, and each button would have to be a separate smart prop so that it could move individually. That can get pretty hairy, IMO.

    Parent them to the item.

    I hate smart props with a passion - they are fantastic, if the vendor has thought of every possible use for it.

    Unfortunately, 90% of my smart props are parented to the right hand only.

    That would make logical sense, but the way things stand now, this won't work with dynamic clothing.

    You want to parent the clothing to the figure.
    You want to parent the buttons to the clothing.
    To test this, I added a sphere to a scene. Scaled it down, and positioned it where the buttons on the pants are. Parented the sphere to the pants (which is as it should be, because the buttons need to follow the flow of the dynamic clothing). Then ran the simulation.

    Original position of the sphere on left. After simulation on right. No go. The prop didn't follow the rotation of the hip of the figure, because it's not parented to the figure. It's parented to the clothing, which is not really "rotating" like a conformer would. So the ball seems to stay at the original point of origin. As I suspected, you'd have to animate each button individually and that wouldn't be fun. Plus it sort of defeats the purpose of using dynamic clothing in the first place.

    0_1502826431337_sim.png



  • @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @Deecey I know that. The problem is that most cloth room users don't know that.

    Are you talking about the end user's use of the Cloth Room Traci? I would assume (and that's assume with a capital "A") the creator/vendor would know to set buttons to Rigid Decorated. Of course, I suppose, that's not always the case.

    I, for one, always check to see if there are Soft or Rigid Decorations set, but then I beta test for folks who create dynamic clothing, so it's ingrained for me. Most end users wouldn't know the difference, but a vendor should.



  • @Deecey; @erogenesis
    We would need a 'prop (=button) follow a facet of garment (where it is stitched to)' function. An add-on triggerd on scene redraw could easily do that.
    Is any of the Python gurus following this discussion?



  • Sorry if I sound stupid, but this is a thing I had on my mind for a long time already:

    How about telling a prop (like the button) to "Stay attached to vertex #xxx and follow it's movements"?
    Technically it would just need to automatically re-adjust the relative origin of the prop according to the movement of that assigned vertex. Like this the button would stay in place.

    I think such a function might solve a lot of the problems described here, and also would be useful for a lot of other purposes (think body jewelry like piercings, etc.)

    Not sure though how this could work in a dynamics sim; but it should be possible in a simple situation like following a morph (open pants etc.)

    Just thinking (or maybe not?) :/

    Karina



  • @karina said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Sorry if I sound stupid, but this is a thing I had on my mind for a long time already:

    How about telling a prop (like the button) to "Stay attached to vertex #xxx and follow it's movements"?
    Technically it would just need to automatically re-adjust the relative origin of the prop according to the movement of that assigned vertex. Like this the button would stay in place.

    I think such a function might solve a lot of the problems described here, and also would be useful for a lot of other purposes (think body jewelry like piercings, etc.)

    Not sure though how this could work in a dynamics sim; but it should be possible in a simple situation like following a morph (open pants etc.)

    Just thinking (or maybe not?) :/

    Karina

    Karina (and F_Verbass), yeah a solution like that could work, but I think it would almost HAVE to be a facet (or maybe a facet selection). Because if you just snap to a single vertex it won't take into account the direction that the normals are facing when it's animated.