The future of Poser is the Fitting Room



  • @Glitterati3D
    Another good point.
    When you're converting non-weight mapped clothing to a weight-mapped figure, that's another thing that has to be checked and tweaked.



  • Ok now lets think positive. What ideas do you have?



  • @erogenesis said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Not all vendors pay that much attention to this, but its great if vendors do

    Sorry, but this is just not true. Perhaps it was true with V4 whose bends were so bad there was no making them look decent, but I don't know a single vendor who doesn't take great care to ensure their clothing bends, twists and rotates beautifully.


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    That's why I wrote some time ago: If you need to write a manual on how your figure works?
    You are too far away from "standard operating procedures" for most vendors to become economically profitable overnight.
    It will also make any support item created for PE harder to use on other figures because either vendors have to "add, or remove" too many things.

    That and: The way some sites are pushing vendors in "their" direction.

    On the Poser side of things :

    • Never forget that you have at least a 10 year backlog against V4.
      If more then 3 clicks are needed to convert something, and it does not work the first few times for an average home alone Poser end user? (The one that never reads a readme because he/she already had 10.000+ of those to read) She's history.

    Another discussion here was on "old tech V4".
    V4 is not old tech at all.
    Only her rigging became obsolete over time, and that's been taken care of multiple times.

    The only "old tech" that's left over is her too high polycount that does not "fit" modern SubD and MicroHD morphs any more. Customers HAVE to use her "as is" because a) no way to reduce polygons easy, and b) too dense when SubD.

    While your demo renders look very good, with a lot of "flesh detail", I fear the PE "handbrake" to modern technology is gonna be the high polycount.

    What you certainly are gonna need right from the start, and what is often forgotten, are multiple high quality texture sets.
    => The quality of a rendered picture comes from the texture set.

    A mesh is only the coathanger to hang the textures on; And any mesh can be morphed by anybody with a mouse.
    The rig has to give realistic bending, but the final quality of the "rendered output"? => Comes from the textures.

    +/-70.000 polygons is a "time proven" concept.
    But it's the only thing that's 10 years old.
    All the rest moved forward.

    END USER FRIENDLY should be hammered in STONE.

    What's the difference between old and obsolete content and "modern" visually acceptable content?
    (Remember, I am in this "game" from Poser 1.)
    Uv_Unwrapping and texture quality.

    Even from "old and obsolete content" the mesh can always be recovered, properly grouped and welded, Unwrapped properly, textured properly and chased through the fitting room.

    The Fitting room basics.
    Only requires some basic knowledge to work properly.

    • A properly grouped and welded obj file
    • The "clothing to fit" HAS to have +/- the same polygon density as the donor figure to get an optimum result.
    • Fine tuning tools are provided inside the Fitting room.

    And if all else fails? Do a "pre-fitting" in an outside 3D app like Blender or equivalent, and only use the Fitting room to transfer the rig. (And replace the obj file with the good one after the save to Library. Don't be left with unwelded obj files).

    That's all end users need to get a good fitting room result.



  • So yeah, those are my ideas.

    Thanks for your input Vilters.

    I think I'm gonna go back to making a Poser figure now :P or render something fun for my fans...



  • @erogenesis said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Anyway, moving on. I'm just trying to come up with something useful.

    Yes, fair enough, a nice piece of clothing does require more detailed work in making sure all of it bend nicely. Not all vendors pay that much attention to this, but its great if vendors do. In the meanwhile, much can still be automated IMO:

    • Parking the prop file plus morphs on a figure and making it inherit the rig in one go (as opposed of going through the setup room or fitting room)
    • refining can happen thereafter (groupings have to go anyway) (BTW, what if it could all be done in the pose room, like the morph editor? No fitting room but a fitting editor, that would be cool!)
    • original morphs are maintained all the time
    • a feature that runs the item through the cloth room to make it endure pre-defined angles to help refine the bends even more
    • the same feature helps make nice FBMs for the item, like cloth suspended between bigger boob morphs

    and that's just for clothing. UV maps and texture transfers can also work this way. The figure creator can use a tool to make a template, and then refine that template like blacksmith3D does. And yes, yes, yes, yes yes I know there's always a refining you have to do with regards to clothing. I regret not making a big point of that in the first post, but at least we can try to speed some of it up.

    Here's an extreme example. I've been doing a lot of work on Pauline, and have her morphed into several different ages. The first one (on the left) is the default Pauline. The others are morphs that I've created.

    Two issues here. First, the more the figure deviates from the original size and shape, the less accurate the joint centers are when the "Match Centers to Morph" feature is used. So the joint centers have to be tweaked.

    Secondly, look at the clothing. These are untouched "Copy Morphs From" morphs. Again, the more the figure deviates from the original size and shape, the more they need to be fixed and smoothed out.

    These are things that will be difficult to achieve automatically. I'm not a programmer, I don't know how easy it would be. All I know is, these clothing morphs were created in Poser and are far from "prime time" quality.

    0_1502547993811_paulines.png



  • And another extreme example. This one to show you how much depends on the model itself. This "mannequin" works great for transferring rigging from Dawn. But it is intentionally low poly, and therefore does not accept morphs well at all. It was not designed to accept morphs the way I am using it here. And this is just ONE morph (bulk) of many I wanted to transfer.

    0_1502548500743_DawnResourceBulk.jpg



  • While I can agree that the fitting room, and perhaps any automated solution, will not produce commercial quality results, I have to agree with Eros main point that striving towards greater universality of assets could be the backbone of poser's future. It's always going to need some help and skill but to me this seems like an area that will pay off big time in investing dev resources.
    The point I take away from ero is that the smaller you make the mountain of a chore of transferring assets from one figure to another, the less the content creators have to waste their energy on it over making awesome stuff



  • @KittyBrown That may be true in some instances, but it will be so rarely.

    Frankly, if I want to convert something from say V4 to Dawn, it's much faster to take my ungrouped, original mesh into the modeler, load the Dawn mannequin and begin the conversion process, then group and rig to the figure.

    The automated conversion just give me more work to try to correct the poor conversion.



  • @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @KittyBrown That may be true in some instances, but it will be so rarely.

    Frankly, if I want to convert something from say V4 to Dawn, it's much faster to take my ungrouped, original mesh into the modeler, load the Dawn mannequin and begin the conversion process, then group and rig to the figure.

    The automated conversion just give me more work to try to correct the poor conversion.

    That's been my experience as well. It's usually a lot less work to refit and regroup something manually than it is to fix an automatic conversion.



  • @erogenesis said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Ok now lets think positive. What ideas do you have?

    In order to determine the solutions, you have to know what the problems are. What I've offered here is constructive criticism and the problems that I've seen while using the automated conversion tools.



  • That's been my experience as well. It's usually a lot less work to refit and regroup something manually than it is to fix an automatic conversion.

    I'm not sure how the point is being missed that this is exactly what the proposition is to fix.
    I dont think anyone really is making the point that the fitting room as it exists now offers what is required. But that's like saying the hair room sucks right now so dont bother trying to make it better.
    I also current refit manually in a modeller. But if the piece I'm refitting has a bunch of cool features like clothing movement morphs then I lose a lot of what makes me live the piece in the first place.
    Better universality of content would be a significant competitive advantage for poser.



  • @KittyBrown said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    That's been my experience as well. It's usually a lot less work to refit and regroup something manually than it is to fix an automatic conversion.

    I'm not sure how the point is being missed that this is exactly what the proposition is to fix.
    I dont think anyone really is making the point that the fitting room as it exists now offers what is required. But that's like saying the hair room sucks right now so dont bother trying to make it better.
    I also current refit manually in a modeller. But if the piece I'm refitting has a bunch of cool features like clothing movement morphs then I lose a lot of what makes me live the piece in the first place.
    Better universality of content would be a significant competitive advantage for poser.

    Yes, this! ^ thank you!

    I'm just running some experiments now, hopefully this will clarify some things.



  • @erogenesis said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @KittyBrown said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    That's been my experience as well. It's usually a lot less work to refit and regroup something manually than it is to fix an automatic conversion.

    I'm not sure how the point is being missed that this is exactly what the proposition is to fix.
    I dont think anyone really is making the point that the fitting room as it exists now offers what is required. But that's like saying the hair room sucks right now so dont bother trying to make it better.
    I also current refit manually in a modeller. But if the piece I'm refitting has a bunch of cool features like clothing movement morphs then I lose a lot of what makes me live the piece in the first place.
    Better universality of content would be a significant competitive advantage for poser.

    Yes, this! ^ thank you!

    I'm just running some experiments now, hopefully this will clarify some things.

    I think the point that I am trying to make is also being missed. I am not saying that the fitting room is worthless. But the way it stands now, it (as well as other automated tools) do not a "commercial quality product" make. All I am trying to point out are the areas where it falls short. In order to make it better, and in order to FIX it, you have to be aware of where it falls short.



  • Yours are all fair points for sure Deecee and I can't really see anyone disputing them. In fact I'd say that ero's initial post acknowledges a lot of the current shortcomings by way of indicating how much better the fitting room needs to become.



  • @KittyBrown said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Yours are all fair points for sure Deecee and I can't really see anyone disputing them. In fact I'd say that ero's initial post acknowledges a lot of the current shortcomings by way of indicating how much better the fitting room needs to become.

    I'm not sure if this has been addressed.

    If an existing piece of clothing has to be regrouped in order to work with another figure, the OBJ file will change. This is something that cannot be redistributed by anyone other than its original creator. So that rules out third party conversions, unless the original creator gives permission to distribute some sort of encoded OBJ that requires the original product to "decode". Those kinds of things can get to be a whole different bag of tricks.



  • @Deecey And, quite frankly, if there WERE a solution, I would expect it to come from the folks who already have the conversion utilities in place. Even the DAZ autofit process if far from perfect - ever seen boob socks, and the infamous pelvis V?

    The only way to do a flawless, commercial quality conversion is to match vertex for vertex and polygon for polygon in the 2 figures for the conversion. And, as we all know, that would constitute a copyright infringement unless one is the creator of both models.


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    @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @KittyBrown said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Yours are all fair points for sure Deecee and I can't really see anyone disputing them. In fact I'd say that ero's initial post acknowledges a lot of the current shortcomings by way of indicating how much better the fitting room needs to become.

    I'm not sure if this has been addressed.

    If an existing piece of clothing has to be regrouped in order to work with another figure, the OBJ file will change. This is something that cannot be redistributed by anyone other than its original creator. So that rules out third party conversions, unless the original creator gives permission to distribute some sort of encoded OBJ that requires the original product. Those kinds of things can get to be a whole different bag of tricks.

    Isn't the idea that the original maker of the cloth does the conversion? So that would not be a problem.



  • @KittyBrown said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Yours are all fair points for sure Deecee and I can't really see anyone disputing them. In fact I'd say that ero's initial post acknowledges a lot of the current shortcomings by way of indicating how much better the fitting room needs to become.

    yep!!!!!!!!!!! Fitting room is far from perfect, but its a start.

    @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    I'm not sure if this has been addressed.

    If an existing piece of clothing has to be regrouped in order to work with another figure, the OBJ file will change.

    Yep, that can hopefully be improved somehow... but yeah this needs to stop in Poser eventually, as the Poser team is well aware of probably.

    @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    This is something that cannot be redistributed by anyone other than its original creator. So that rules out third party conversions, unless the original creator gives permission to distribute some sort of encoded OBJ that requires the original product. Those kinds of things can get to be a whole different bag of tricks.

    That's about redistribution, I'm not talking about that here.


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    Also ...

    No need to be afraid of the Clothroom...it's easier then some think. :)