The future of Poser is the Fitting Room



  • That's been my experience as well. It's usually a lot less work to refit and regroup something manually than it is to fix an automatic conversion.

    I'm not sure how the point is being missed that this is exactly what the proposition is to fix.
    I dont think anyone really is making the point that the fitting room as it exists now offers what is required. But that's like saying the hair room sucks right now so dont bother trying to make it better.
    I also current refit manually in a modeller. But if the piece I'm refitting has a bunch of cool features like clothing movement morphs then I lose a lot of what makes me live the piece in the first place.
    Better universality of content would be a significant competitive advantage for poser.



  • @KittyBrown said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    That's been my experience as well. It's usually a lot less work to refit and regroup something manually than it is to fix an automatic conversion.

    I'm not sure how the point is being missed that this is exactly what the proposition is to fix.
    I dont think anyone really is making the point that the fitting room as it exists now offers what is required. But that's like saying the hair room sucks right now so dont bother trying to make it better.
    I also current refit manually in a modeller. But if the piece I'm refitting has a bunch of cool features like clothing movement morphs then I lose a lot of what makes me live the piece in the first place.
    Better universality of content would be a significant competitive advantage for poser.

    Yes, this! ^ thank you!

    I'm just running some experiments now, hopefully this will clarify some things.



  • @erogenesis said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @KittyBrown said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    That's been my experience as well. It's usually a lot less work to refit and regroup something manually than it is to fix an automatic conversion.

    I'm not sure how the point is being missed that this is exactly what the proposition is to fix.
    I dont think anyone really is making the point that the fitting room as it exists now offers what is required. But that's like saying the hair room sucks right now so dont bother trying to make it better.
    I also current refit manually in a modeller. But if the piece I'm refitting has a bunch of cool features like clothing movement morphs then I lose a lot of what makes me live the piece in the first place.
    Better universality of content would be a significant competitive advantage for poser.

    Yes, this! ^ thank you!

    I'm just running some experiments now, hopefully this will clarify some things.

    I think the point that I am trying to make is also being missed. I am not saying that the fitting room is worthless. But the way it stands now, it (as well as other automated tools) do not a "commercial quality product" make. All I am trying to point out are the areas where it falls short. In order to make it better, and in order to FIX it, you have to be aware of where it falls short.



  • Yours are all fair points for sure Deecee and I can't really see anyone disputing them. In fact I'd say that ero's initial post acknowledges a lot of the current shortcomings by way of indicating how much better the fitting room needs to become.



  • @KittyBrown said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Yours are all fair points for sure Deecee and I can't really see anyone disputing them. In fact I'd say that ero's initial post acknowledges a lot of the current shortcomings by way of indicating how much better the fitting room needs to become.

    I'm not sure if this has been addressed.

    If an existing piece of clothing has to be regrouped in order to work with another figure, the OBJ file will change. This is something that cannot be redistributed by anyone other than its original creator. So that rules out third party conversions, unless the original creator gives permission to distribute some sort of encoded OBJ that requires the original product to "decode". Those kinds of things can get to be a whole different bag of tricks.



  • @Deecey And, quite frankly, if there WERE a solution, I would expect it to come from the folks who already have the conversion utilities in place. Even the DAZ autofit process if far from perfect - ever seen boob socks, and the infamous pelvis V?

    The only way to do a flawless, commercial quality conversion is to match vertex for vertex and polygon for polygon in the 2 figures for the conversion. And, as we all know, that would constitute a copyright infringement unless one is the creator of both models.


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    @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @KittyBrown said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Yours are all fair points for sure Deecee and I can't really see anyone disputing them. In fact I'd say that ero's initial post acknowledges a lot of the current shortcomings by way of indicating how much better the fitting room needs to become.

    I'm not sure if this has been addressed.

    If an existing piece of clothing has to be regrouped in order to work with another figure, the OBJ file will change. This is something that cannot be redistributed by anyone other than its original creator. So that rules out third party conversions, unless the original creator gives permission to distribute some sort of encoded OBJ that requires the original product. Those kinds of things can get to be a whole different bag of tricks.

    Isn't the idea that the original maker of the cloth does the conversion? So that would not be a problem.



  • @KittyBrown said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Yours are all fair points for sure Deecee and I can't really see anyone disputing them. In fact I'd say that ero's initial post acknowledges a lot of the current shortcomings by way of indicating how much better the fitting room needs to become.

    yep!!!!!!!!!!! Fitting room is far from perfect, but its a start.

    @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    I'm not sure if this has been addressed.

    If an existing piece of clothing has to be regrouped in order to work with another figure, the OBJ file will change.

    Yep, that can hopefully be improved somehow... but yeah this needs to stop in Poser eventually, as the Poser team is well aware of probably.

    @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    This is something that cannot be redistributed by anyone other than its original creator. So that rules out third party conversions, unless the original creator gives permission to distribute some sort of encoded OBJ that requires the original product. Those kinds of things can get to be a whole different bag of tricks.

    That's about redistribution, I'm not talking about that here.


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    Also ...

    No need to be afraid of the Clothroom...it's easier then some think. :)



  • I'll explain this all in better detail in a moment. Its clear that certain folks have completely missed the point of my idea. Just making some renders.



  • @Biscuits said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Also ...

    No need to be afraid of the Clothroom...it's easier then some think. :)

    and it can probably be super useful in other things too!


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    @KittyBrown said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    That's been my experience as well. It's usually a lot less work to refit and regroup something manually than it is to fix an automatic conversion.

    I'm not sure how the point is being missed that this is exactly what the proposition is to fix.
    I dont think anyone really is making the point that the fitting room as it exists now offers what is required. But that's like saying the hair room sucks right now so dont bother trying to make it better.
    I also current refit manually in a modeller. But if the piece I'm refitting has a bunch of cool features like clothing movement morphs then I lose a lot of what makes me live the piece in the first place.
    Better universality of content would be a significant competitive advantage for poser.

    If you use Blenders "shape" keys to make a new ; "Fit to figureX" morph, you can export this as a new morph from Blender and import as a FBM "Fit morph" into Poser.
    That way you do not loose all existing clothing morphs either.

    But for this to work, you have to maintain vertex order of course.



  • @erogenesis
    The point of your idea hasn't been missed at all. But there are issues to overcome, and in order to fix the fitting room these things have to be addressed. Pointing out these issues is not missing your point. 8-)



  • @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @erogenesis
    The point of your idea hasn't been missed at all. But there are issues to overcome, and in order to fix the fitting room these things have to be addressed. Pointing out these issues is not missing your point. 8-)

    patience, I'll show you



  • ok....

    The Fitting room is indeed not perfect, much needs to be improved, and yes its probably better not to use it for professional work. BUT, it could be a start to something useful, also for professionals. The idea is, speed up what can be sped up... such that... it HELPS you with your work as a vendor. If it just causes more work, then its obviously a bad idea.

    The fitting room as it is, currently, can work for small things, like for comic artists that just want a quick fix. Although its not perfect, it can already do quite a bit.

    In 10 minutes I made a simple mannequin (just as a demo) using parts of the base mesh of Project E. I transferred all of the essential WM and morphs and now I can use her as a template for clothing.

    Within 10 more minutes I had jeans sorted (below) for mesh 5. I've also included examples of my efforts for mesh4.5, with a slightly more advanced mannequin. Now before you click on the NSFW buttons, allow me to warn you:

    • you will see imperfections, and you might be tempted to comment on them and show your skills and knowledge on the subject, and leave it at that...
    • or you can choose to temporarily ignore them, and see the bigger picture, which is: what the fitting CAN actually already do, and THEN what could be improved, based on the imperfections you observe.

    Take a look:

    ***NSFW content***

    click to show

    Just a quick note here, because I know that some folks might not be able to help themselves, despite the warning: yes, its not perfect. I entirely admit that. It needs work, yes, I know. The mesh4.5 mannequin started out as an experiment, and yes I'm a sloppy artist etc etc thank you. But it looks much better than some of the other examples. In short, this can potentially help a lot.

    Lets list the pros and cons of what we see here:

    Pros:

    • WM bending Scaling works pretty well around simple joints
    • Morphs (and JCMs) transfer pretty well too.
    • (unrelated) with the Mesh4.5 mannequin, you can see how the suspended cloth between her boobs works. This comes from the mannequin, and responds directly to the associated FBM

    Cons:

    • confined areas such as the hips are tricky. I did have to work on them to get both results. As you can see with mesh5, it still needs work
    • Not really a con, but bends need to behave like clothes, and that needs to be done properly in the mannequin. Here the bends are. so-so.

    What to do about it:
    There are MANY things we can do about it. And I would like to take an example from the cloth room (warning, I don't mean go inside the cloth room, or use the cloth room, but example FROM the cloth room. Its an abstraction.). So i the cloth room, you can define a few things: what is dynamic, what stays put, what is a belt loop and what is a button, basically. Why not do something like that for the fitting room? You define a precarious spot, like the groin, and you say, 'take your time to figure this one out', or you can say: this side should be rThigh, and this side lThigh, and this hip... and this can apply for all figures used. Now Poser can look at the host figure, check where the groupings lie, match them according to the constraints the vendor specified, and then also check which WM lies closest to the group that the vendor has specified (because some figures have boxer shorts for hips) and boom, you might just have something close to a nicely rigged clothing item... to START with. Then you can refine it to your heart's content.

    Poser could even provide some templates to have these zones specified for the vendor, then the vendor could adjust them, and then the template will be even more useful. Because at the end of the day, while Poser figures might be grouped differently, humans bend more-or-less the same. Just find a way to define those areas for the fitting room to make its life easier.

    But what about these groupings? This discussion of groupings and unimesh figures aside (because these groupings do need to go anyway), the only reason that these groupings are of any importance are because once you change them, the morphs die. What if that was eliminated, the morphs come from a PMD that controls the WELDED base mesh, pre-transform... and you could change the groupings to your heart's content, not affecting the morphs, and all the groupings really are, are handles?

    If that was possible, then vendors don't need to worry that much about how to group their things, and just worry about morphs and rigging. And because groupings would then not be an issue, their stuff could work more easier for other figures...

    YES I KNOW, you do need to load new JCMs and redo the rigging, but see the potential to streamline things here.

    Now for a confusing idea: you could even USE the cloth room! Once the vendor is happy with the WM, Poser could potentially use Cloth Room tech (yes now we're talking real cloth room) to make 'realistic' JCMs! Poser loads the base figure and the item in the cloth room, bends the legs or arms in predetermined directions and simulates those movements, saves the resulting sims as JCMs, and programms them as JCMs. Boom. How cool would that be?

    I'm just shooting off ideas here, don't waste time to try catch me out on details, I'm sure you can see many many many snags, the Poser team would know... but guys, I'm sure there are many ways to speed up this process. That's the whole point here. Maybe for the first few attempts of such a tool, it would only be useful for hobbyists, but the more they improve it, who knows?



  • PS: I hve plans for other mannequins too, one for dresses, one for hair, perhaps even more.



  • here's a better example of morphs that come from the mannequin (cloth suspended between boobs):

    0_1502561215504_Stay Tuned 1.jpg

    Again, not perfect, I know, and yes I suck as an artist... but I'm sure this has potential ;)



  • @erogenesis said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    But what about these groupings? This discussion of groupings and unimesh figures aside (because these groupings do need to go anyway), the only reason that these groupings are of any importance are because once you change them, the morphs die.

    Actually it goes deeper than that at present and is the single greatest barrier to creating refits in the Fitting Room.

    Here's a set of capris pants that I converted from V4 to a reshaped Pauline (don't mind her bends they are still being worked on, I just whipped this up quick to show you something):

    0_1502560751040_converted.png

    Looks good on the surface, right? So far so good, this is easy! 8-)
    Well, until you look under the hood. The original V4 object is shown at the bottom. The converted object is shown at the top. Notice the different vertex count. If all Poser did was regroup the OBJ it MIGHT be a different story. But you'll notice that the converted OBJ has more vertices.

    And the highlighted polygons show why. In the original OBJ, everything but the waistband was welded together. Because if you double-click the OBJ in Modo, everything but the waistband gets selected.

    However, if you double-click a portion of the leg in the CONVERTED object, the only polygons that get selected are those that belong to the group that you clicked on. This means that the groups aren't welded, which is why you have the extra verts in the converted OBJ. And when you start trying to morph that OBJ in an external program you'll get splits at the group seams.

    0_1502561042864_compare.png

    So there are a couple ways to fix this. Either fix the way that the Setup Room and Fitting Room save the object (keep original vertex count and vertex order), or do away with grouping requirements entirely. The question is, how will the latter solution work with existing/legacy content?

    Again I want to stress I am NOT trying to deride your ideas. Quite the opposite. I totally get what you're saying.



  • @Deecey AHA! Now we're talking! I understand this issue and yep once you start welding you change the vertex order and count and... basically just mayhem. ThHis presents challenges yes. But there are still ways forward.

    Challenges would be what to weld. You wouldn't wanna weld buttons to the cloth for example, or perhaps particular seams. So there needs to be some pre-definition going on.

    Morphs can still be kept, but that would either involve a phone call to Color curvature, or changes to Poser's core application. Instead of calling morphs from the level of the rig and split up bdyparts, call it from before the rig: the welded base mesh. I can load morphs into the base mesh in a scene in poser and fart around with the groupings, but the morph will still work. The trouble is when that vertex count dies, like you show.

    Is that what you mean?


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    @erogenesis
    Question : did you use the autogroup function in your demo?