The future of Poser is the Fitting Room



  • I'm really happy that this is sparking up a bit of a discussion. I do hope SM are watching.

    My idea might not be fool-proof, but I think, in general, is has to be a good idea to try and automate content compatibility as much as possible, as long as it results in reasonable quality of course. We need to find a way to relieve the pressure off vendors and artists to make the choice whether or not to support or invest in a figure based on reasons that are as varied and as subjective as there are people in the Poser world. Someone even suggested to have some universal mannequin that can accept all clothes, or can first be made to fit certain clothing, and then transport it to another fit, where it can be baked into the next figure shape, including the original morphs (which would require some serious algorithms). Perhaps, at some point in the future, we can then finally put to bed this idea of the 'uberfigure', and use any figure we need for any situation that requires it. 3D figure art can then finally be a spontaneous thing again for artists, hobbyists and vendors alike... and not some waiting game or some difficult business decision!

    @fbs7 yes, the fitting room is indeed already pretty nifty, I use it a lot! And lol, yes, softbody needs a lot of refinement... but I hope they leave that for later.

    And yes, Chuck was very good. He listened and actually fixed a lot of seriously flawed issues in Poser.



  • That is how I put my characters together - Load base mesh (will ALL morphs); load character; fiddle about with dials; Dials to Single Morph; load clothing; Copy Morphs From; then either reduce the polys, or merge figure & clothing into 1 mesh; delete unused morphs; reload expressions.

    End result - lightweight, clothed figure ready to go to work.

    Never, ever, ever got merge figure to work. Every time Poser either crashes, pushes the character's hair down to their neck, show texture poke through even when hidden polys removed so I got no idea how that works. If I want to waste a day and feel like killing kittens, I play with merging figures.
    Copy morphs works a treat. Reduce polygons is fine. Merge figures is the first through fifth levels of hell.



  • @morkonan You know, the only one of those 3 products - which I bought years ago - that I still use today is Auto Group Editor. And, that's because I find it easier to group in AGE than the modeler or in Poser.

    Quick Conform does not work with weight mapping, and Poser 11's Copy Morphs From is actually more precise than Morphing Clothes.



  • @piersyf said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    That is how I put my characters together - Load base mesh (will ALL morphs); load character; fiddle about with dials; Dials to Single Morph; load clothing; Copy Morphs From; then either reduce the polys, or merge figure & clothing into 1 mesh; delete unused morphs; reload expressions.

    End result - lightweight, clothed figure ready to go to work.

    Never, ever, ever got merge figure to work. Every time Poser either crashes, pushes the character's hair down to their neck, show texture poke through even when hidden polys removed so I got no idea how that works. If I want to waste a day and feel like killing kittens, I play with merging figures.
    Copy morphs works a treat. Reduce polygons is fine. Merge figures is the first through fifth levels of hell.

    Oh no; sorry for that; merge figures (followed by that cool poly reduction with removal of hidden faces) is very very useful to decrease complexity and increase speed of my animations. I use that all the time, and although I do have the sporadic loss of morphs from time to time, I do't remember having a crash for that function.

    I do backup everything before I try to do that, though.



  • @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @morkonan You know, the only one of those 3 products - which I bought years ago - that I still use today is Auto Group Editor. And, that's because I find it easier to group in AGE than the modeler or in Poser.

    Quick Conform does not work with weight mapping, and Poser 11's Copy Morphs From is actually more precise than Morphing Clothes.

    Love AGE. Still use it.
    Also several of Dimension3D's utilities, including Poser File Editor and Morphing Clothes. Can't live without them. The reason that I prefer Morphing Clothes over Poser's Copy Morphs is you can control offset, smoothing, and "hard materials" BEFORE you copy the morphs.



  • I've had moderate to fair success with combining figures and reduce polygons. I used them both to effect in my comic the Disco Dragon, combining M4 and V4 with some basic clothing, and it worked pretty decently. But they were fairly simple versions of those characters. Its a very useful thing especially in massive scenes, where less clutter in the hierarchy and figure selection lists is a nice thing! The only thing I didn't like is how I lost the grouping structure, and how the clothing morphs for the FBMs were re-interpreted. I would've rather that the actual versions were used to make the compilation. I did notice that the bigger the figure, the bigger the chance of a crash. I've never managed to combine my Comic figure with anything.



  • @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    The reason that I prefer Morphing Clothes over Poser's Copy Morphs is you can control offset, smoothing, and "hard materials" BEFORE you copy the morphs.

    Stuff like that should go linea recta into the fitting room!!! ...or rather the "copy morphs" function.



  • @Deecey Oh, yeah, I use PFE every day!!!!!!! Can't live without it.



  • @erogenesis said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    The reason that I prefer Morphing Clothes over Poser's Copy Morphs is you can control offset, smoothing, and "hard materials" BEFORE you copy the morphs.

    Stuff like that should go linea recta into the fitting room!!! ...or rather the "copy morphs" function.

    Agreed. It's not enough just to push a button and copy morphs over from a figure to clothing. I can't count how many times buttons end up looking like they've melted, cloth that is wrinkled, etc etc etc. You end up having to fix after the fact.

    With Morphing Clothes there are several settings that you can control BEFORE you copy the morphs over.

    -- You can specify solid materials
    -- You can exclude body parts from getting morphs copied over
    -- You can specify the number of samples
    -- Control distance weight, falloff start and end

    Tons more options that would be nice to set BEFORE you press that Copy Morphs button.



  • @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @erogenesis said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Stuff like that should go linea recta into the fitting room!!! ...or rather the "copy morphs" function.

    Agreed. It's not enough just to push a button and copy morphs over from a figure to clothing. I can't count how many times buttons end up looking like they've melted, cloth that is wrinkled, etc etc etc. You end up having to fix after the fact.

    With Morphing Clothes there are several settings that you can control BEFORE you copy the morphs over.

    -- You can specify solid materials
    -- You can exclude body parts from getting morphs copied over
    -- You can specify the number of samples
    -- Control distance weight, falloff start and end

    Tons more options that would be nice to set BEFORE you press that Copy Morphs button.

    Yes! Absolutely! Abso-damn-lutely! This is what I was getting at, more-or-less. The more you can predefine in general, like you say, what is solid, what is dynamic, what needs to be copied exactly, what needs to stay away from what, etc etc, the easier things could potentially become for vendors to rig stuff for certain figures, or transferring these things to other figures, and, perhaps, alongside a vendor's product for a certain figure, provide this template as a prop (with fitting morphs) to artists so that they themselves can rig it for yet another figure, based on the constraints that the vendor specifies... or bonus: even use it as dynamic cloth.

    In fact the cloth room already does a lot of this, if they can extend those kind of parameters to the fitting room, and the copy morphs function, and perhaps even use some of the tools in the cloth room, it might help the fitting room to make smarter interpretations on where the grouping will end up, and the WM and if needed, JCMs.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    My normal practice for "Copy Morphs from" is as follows:
    Select the Morphs to copy to the clothing on the figure. We all know by now that this works but sometimes is pretty rough.

    Then go to the clothing.

    • Click on the little arrow behind one of the morphs and select "Edit morph"=> This opens the morph brush.
    • Finetune the morph to your liking.

    Mostly that is some smoothing, or some "fitting" to get the correct "offset" between clothing and figure.
    (Select by vertex group or by material zone, and you have even more control).
    => Done.

    Rarely this takes over a minute per morph, and I like the manual control to finetune things.



  • @vilters yes that's how we all do it now. But try doing that for 40+ morphs, for 120+ clothing items

    O.o



  • What I miss in the cloth room is a specification which bones I want to use for what:
    Bones are used to:
    A - carry geometry (classic function)
    B - deform geometry, (ghost bones)
    C - carry (grand) child bones that carry geometry
    I am one of those depraved users that like to use the auto-group function.
    I to be able to say whether bones have function A, B or C in te new garment and want the grouping process to look at bones as under A above only.
    and, yes, templates please, and for garments hanging from the shoulders chest as the basis for the conforming.



  • You guys have some good ideas and I hope the Poser team is keeping up with this post. I would really like to see poser move forward as a program.



  • @vilters said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    My normal practice for "Copy Morphs from" is as follows:
    Select the Morphs to copy to the clothing on the figure. We all know by now that this works but sometimes is pretty rough.

    Then go to the clothing.

    • Click on the little arrow behind one of the morphs and select "Edit morph"=> This opens the morph brush.
    • Finetune the morph to your liking.

    Mostly that is some smoothing, or some "fitting" to get the correct "offset" between clothing and figure.
    (Select by vertex group or by material zone, and you have even more control).
    => Done.

    Rarely this takes over a minute per morph, and I like the manual control to finetune things.

    I don't think anyone is disputing that morphs can be edited in Poser after the fact. I think what we are saying is that the Copy Morphs From feature needs to be improved in such a way that additional editing would be less necessary.

    Simple example here. Which end result would you prefer "out of the box" if you want clothing to fit a character that has been morphed from an adult to a preteen?

    "Copy Morphs From" on left. "Morphing Clothes" on right. Straight out of the box. (Ignore nipple slippage, that's in the original OBJ also, haven't fixed that yet).

    Neither are perfect. But this is an extreme morph, and of the two I'd rather end up with the one on the right.

    0_1502809076476_morph.png



  • And simple example#2. Having control over which materials are solid BEFORE the morph is created lends better results with buttons and other hard objects.

    Copy Morphs on left; Morphing Clothes on right.

    0_1502810128654_button.png



  • @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    And simple example#2. Having control over which materials are solid BEFORE the morph is created lends better results with buttons and other hard objects.

    Copy Morphs on left; Morphing Clothes on right.

    0_1502810128654_button.png

    I have to ask (from my perspective) a really dumb question.

    Why on earth do vendors insist on making things like buttons part of the base .obj of a piece of clothing?

    If the button is a separate prop, you never actually have to worry about how the button is effected by clothing conversion programs.



  • @ssgbryan although not the biggest issue in the world, from an artist's perspective (or just for me) I would find that annoying and impractical. In a full scene I try to reduce clutter in the hierarchy and also reduce the number of accidentally clickable items, especially for something as insignificant as a button. Regarding morphs, if you have it on jeans for example, you'd have to programme it quite complexly to follow an 'open fly' morph. With P11 this might not be such an issue since you can also morph the prop along with the figure through GoZ, but still its extra clutter for no real reason and P11's GoZ feature is very unstable for me with props (unless SR7 fixed that?). So just making sure the button doesn't go all skwonk makes things easier... for me then.

    And yes, like you read below, FBMs would become a pain in the butt to programme along to as well.



  • @ssgbryan said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    And simple example#2. Having control over which materials are solid BEFORE the morph is created lends better results with buttons and other hard objects.

    Copy Morphs on left; Morphing Clothes on right.

    0_1502810128654_button.png

    I have to ask (from my perspective) a really dumb question.

    Why on earth do vendors insist on making things like buttons part of the base .obj of a piece of clothing?

    If the button is a separate prop, you never actually have to worry about how the button is effected by clothing conversion programs.

    A valid question, I suppose. If the button is a smart prop, it would load based on the default OBJ (probably, I'd have to confirm on a morphed OBJ but I think this will be the case). So if you have a figure that has different proportions, the button prop would have to be translated to the new position. If the clothing has multiple buttons (such as a shirt having buttons in the front, on the cuffs, etc) that would be multiple translations. Either that, or you'd have to add the morphs to the smart prop as well. Easier to do it all at once, so you include the buttons in the base OBJ and (by extension) the character morph.



  • @Deecey Not to mention sitting in the floor like melted wax after a cloth sim.