The future of Poser is the Fitting Room



  • @erogenesis said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    The reason that I prefer Morphing Clothes over Poser's Copy Morphs is you can control offset, smoothing, and "hard materials" BEFORE you copy the morphs.

    Stuff like that should go linea recta into the fitting room!!! ...or rather the "copy morphs" function.

    Agreed. It's not enough just to push a button and copy morphs over from a figure to clothing. I can't count how many times buttons end up looking like they've melted, cloth that is wrinkled, etc etc etc. You end up having to fix after the fact.

    With Morphing Clothes there are several settings that you can control BEFORE you copy the morphs over.

    -- You can specify solid materials
    -- You can exclude body parts from getting morphs copied over
    -- You can specify the number of samples
    -- Control distance weight, falloff start and end

    Tons more options that would be nice to set BEFORE you press that Copy Morphs button.



  • @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @erogenesis said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Stuff like that should go linea recta into the fitting room!!! ...or rather the "copy morphs" function.

    Agreed. It's not enough just to push a button and copy morphs over from a figure to clothing. I can't count how many times buttons end up looking like they've melted, cloth that is wrinkled, etc etc etc. You end up having to fix after the fact.

    With Morphing Clothes there are several settings that you can control BEFORE you copy the morphs over.

    -- You can specify solid materials
    -- You can exclude body parts from getting morphs copied over
    -- You can specify the number of samples
    -- Control distance weight, falloff start and end

    Tons more options that would be nice to set BEFORE you press that Copy Morphs button.

    Yes! Absolutely! Abso-damn-lutely! This is what I was getting at, more-or-less. The more you can predefine in general, like you say, what is solid, what is dynamic, what needs to be copied exactly, what needs to stay away from what, etc etc, the easier things could potentially become for vendors to rig stuff for certain figures, or transferring these things to other figures, and, perhaps, alongside a vendor's product for a certain figure, provide this template as a prop (with fitting morphs) to artists so that they themselves can rig it for yet another figure, based on the constraints that the vendor specifies... or bonus: even use it as dynamic cloth.

    In fact the cloth room already does a lot of this, if they can extend those kind of parameters to the fitting room, and the copy morphs function, and perhaps even use some of the tools in the cloth room, it might help the fitting room to make smarter interpretations on where the grouping will end up, and the WM and if needed, JCMs.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    My normal practice for "Copy Morphs from" is as follows:
    Select the Morphs to copy to the clothing on the figure. We all know by now that this works but sometimes is pretty rough.

    Then go to the clothing.

    • Click on the little arrow behind one of the morphs and select "Edit morph"=> This opens the morph brush.
    • Finetune the morph to your liking.

    Mostly that is some smoothing, or some "fitting" to get the correct "offset" between clothing and figure.
    (Select by vertex group or by material zone, and you have even more control).
    => Done.

    Rarely this takes over a minute per morph, and I like the manual control to finetune things.



  • @vilters yes that's how we all do it now. But try doing that for 40+ morphs, for 120+ clothing items

    O.o



  • What I miss in the cloth room is a specification which bones I want to use for what:
    Bones are used to:
    A - carry geometry (classic function)
    B - deform geometry, (ghost bones)
    C - carry (grand) child bones that carry geometry
    I am one of those depraved users that like to use the auto-group function.
    I to be able to say whether bones have function A, B or C in te new garment and want the grouping process to look at bones as under A above only.
    and, yes, templates please, and for garments hanging from the shoulders chest as the basis for the conforming.



  • You guys have some good ideas and I hope the Poser team is keeping up with this post. I would really like to see poser move forward as a program.



  • @vilters said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    My normal practice for "Copy Morphs from" is as follows:
    Select the Morphs to copy to the clothing on the figure. We all know by now that this works but sometimes is pretty rough.

    Then go to the clothing.

    • Click on the little arrow behind one of the morphs and select "Edit morph"=> This opens the morph brush.
    • Finetune the morph to your liking.

    Mostly that is some smoothing, or some "fitting" to get the correct "offset" between clothing and figure.
    (Select by vertex group or by material zone, and you have even more control).
    => Done.

    Rarely this takes over a minute per morph, and I like the manual control to finetune things.

    I don't think anyone is disputing that morphs can be edited in Poser after the fact. I think what we are saying is that the Copy Morphs From feature needs to be improved in such a way that additional editing would be less necessary.

    Simple example here. Which end result would you prefer "out of the box" if you want clothing to fit a character that has been morphed from an adult to a preteen?

    "Copy Morphs From" on left. "Morphing Clothes" on right. Straight out of the box. (Ignore nipple slippage, that's in the original OBJ also, haven't fixed that yet).

    Neither are perfect. But this is an extreme morph, and of the two I'd rather end up with the one on the right.

    0_1502809076476_morph.png



  • And simple example#2. Having control over which materials are solid BEFORE the morph is created lends better results with buttons and other hard objects.

    Copy Morphs on left; Morphing Clothes on right.

    0_1502810128654_button.png



  • @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    And simple example#2. Having control over which materials are solid BEFORE the morph is created lends better results with buttons and other hard objects.

    Copy Morphs on left; Morphing Clothes on right.

    0_1502810128654_button.png

    I have to ask (from my perspective) a really dumb question.

    Why on earth do vendors insist on making things like buttons part of the base .obj of a piece of clothing?

    If the button is a separate prop, you never actually have to worry about how the button is effected by clothing conversion programs.



  • @ssgbryan although not the biggest issue in the world, from an artist's perspective (or just for me) I would find that annoying and impractical. In a full scene I try to reduce clutter in the hierarchy and also reduce the number of accidentally clickable items, especially for something as insignificant as a button. Regarding morphs, if you have it on jeans for example, you'd have to programme it quite complexly to follow an 'open fly' morph. With P11 this might not be such an issue since you can also morph the prop along with the figure through GoZ, but still its extra clutter for no real reason and P11's GoZ feature is very unstable for me with props (unless SR7 fixed that?). So just making sure the button doesn't go all skwonk makes things easier... for me then.

    And yes, like you read below, FBMs would become a pain in the butt to programme along to as well.



  • @ssgbryan said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    And simple example#2. Having control over which materials are solid BEFORE the morph is created lends better results with buttons and other hard objects.

    Copy Morphs on left; Morphing Clothes on right.

    0_1502810128654_button.png

    I have to ask (from my perspective) a really dumb question.

    Why on earth do vendors insist on making things like buttons part of the base .obj of a piece of clothing?

    If the button is a separate prop, you never actually have to worry about how the button is effected by clothing conversion programs.

    A valid question, I suppose. If the button is a smart prop, it would load based on the default OBJ (probably, I'd have to confirm on a morphed OBJ but I think this will be the case). So if you have a figure that has different proportions, the button prop would have to be translated to the new position. If the clothing has multiple buttons (such as a shirt having buttons in the front, on the cuffs, etc) that would be multiple translations. Either that, or you'd have to add the morphs to the smart prop as well. Easier to do it all at once, so you include the buttons in the base OBJ and (by extension) the character morph.



  • @Deecey Not to mention sitting in the floor like melted wax after a cloth sim.



  • @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @Deecey Not to mention sitting in the floor like melted wax after a cloth sim.

    There's a solution for that. In the Cloth Room, use the "Cloth Groups" section to assign the button material to a Rigid Decorated Group before simulating. That is, presuming that the buttons are a part of the clothing to begin with. I don't think that would work if the buttons are a separate smart prop. Nothing to tell it what it is supposed to be a rigid part of. 8-)



  • @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    That is, presuming that the buttons are a part of the clothing to begin with. I don't think that would work if the buttons are a separate smart prop. Nothing to tell it what it is supposed to be a rigid part of. 8-)

    Hehe that's what I was about to ask! Maybe it does listen to the host figure?



  • @Deecey I know that. The problem is that most cloth room users don't know that.



  • @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    A valid question, I suppose. If the button is a smart prop, it would load based on the default OBJ (probably, I'd have to confirm on a morphed OBJ but I think this will be the case). So if you have a figure that has different proportions, the button prop would have to be translated to the new position. If the clothing has multiple buttons (such as a shirt having buttons in the front, on the cuffs, etc) that would be multiple translations. Either that, or you'd have to add the morphs to the smart prop as well. Easier to do it all at once, so you include the buttons in the base OBJ and (by extension) the character morph.

    Easier for you, not easier for me.

    It doesn't have to be a smart prop - if I am putting a shirt on a normal sized figure (not the default amazons we seem to be saddled with), the spacing will either change, or I will need fewer buttons (just like real life). If I am moving the clothing content to a child (In my Trek universe, people have families), I'll need fewer buttons.

    I would much rather move uncrushed buttons myself.

    And Glitterati3D - why would I put the buttons on before I did a clothing sim?



  • @ssgbryan Because not everyone is you. Not everyone understands how to use the cloth room effectively. Not all brokerages would accept such sloppy rigging.

    The reasons are numerous and as diverse as your reasons for what you do and how you do it.

    And, no, smart props do not obey morphs.



  • @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @ssgbryan Because not everyone is you. Not everyone understands how to use the cloth room effectively. Not all brokerages would accept such sloppy rigging.

    The reasons are numerous and as diverse as your reasons for what you do and how you do it.

    And, no, smart props do not obey morphs.

    @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @ssgbryan Because not everyone is you. Not everyone understands how to use the cloth room effectively. Not all brokerages would accept such sloppy rigging.

    The reasons are numerous and as diverse as your reasons for what you do and how you do it.

    And, no, smart props do not obey morphs.

    And everyone doesn't stay a beginner forever. At some point, we have to let go of the Poser 4 workflow.



  • @ssgbryan This has NOTHING to do with Poser 4. Good GAWD, can you be any more insulting for no reason?



  • @ssgbryan said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @ssgbryan Because not everyone is you. Not everyone understands how to use the cloth room effectively. Not all brokerages would accept such sloppy rigging.

    The reasons are numerous and as diverse as your reasons for what you do and how you do it.

    And, no, smart props do not obey morphs.

    @Glitterati3D said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @ssgbryan Because not everyone is you. Not everyone understands how to use the cloth room effectively. Not all brokerages would accept such sloppy rigging.

    The reasons are numerous and as diverse as your reasons for what you do and how you do it.

    And, no, smart props do not obey morphs.

    And everyone doesn't stay a beginner forever. At some point, we have to let go of the Poser 4 workflow.

    This doesn't really have to do with sticking with a Poser 4 workflow, though. (Dynamics were introduced in Poser 5). So allow me to ask this question. If you are using dynamic clothing and don't have the buttons on, I'm assuming you are working with stills. You simulate the clothing and then add your buttons to the final rendered frame.

    But suppose you are doing an animation. How would you handle the buttons in that case? It seems to me that each one would HAVE to be a smart prop, and each button would have to be a separate smart prop so that it could move individually. That can get pretty hairy, IMO.