The future of Poser is the Fitting Room



  • @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    But I'll be glad to document it when it's fixed LMAO

    And we all know you can! :D


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @Deecey

    Well, poser uses that internal "rewelding" of vertx groups at import thing. I think it comes originally from MAX some 20-25 years ago.
    That is what I call old tech, but Poser is build around that.

    Correcting that weld, unweld, and reweld code in Poser would take about a year.
    Both confirmed at the time by Steve and Charles and Larry, because that "system" is inside the core of the code. All else is build around it.

    Example : Yes, you can grow hair directly on the head or skin of a figure. But then what does Poser do when you save the figure/hair combination?
    Right, it cuts it up into vertex groups, breaking most of the rest with it. See how deep this goes?



  • @vilters said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @Deecey

    Well, poser uses that internal "rewelding" of vertx groups at import thing. I think it comes originally from MAX some 20-25 years ago.
    That is what I call old tech, but Poser is build around that.

    Correcting that weld, unweld, and reweld code in Poser would take about a year.
    Both confirmed at the time by Steve and Charles and Larry, because that "system" is inside the core of the code. All else is build around it.

    Example : Yes, you can grow hair directly on the head or skin of a figure. But then what does Poser do when you save the figure/hair combination?
    Right, it cuts it up into vertex groups, breaking most of the rest with it. See how deep this goes?

    Yes exactly. A very hairy walk through the code will be necessary (no pun intended LOL). But so, so, so needed.

    Like I said I'll bring the beer to the party when it's fixed. 8-D



  • @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @vilters said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Correcting that weld, unweld, and reweld code in Poser would take about a year.
    Both confirmed at the time by Steve and Charles and Larry, because that "system" is inside the core of the code. All else is build around it.

    Yes exactly. A very hairy walk through the code will be necessary (no pun intended LOL). But so, so, so needed.

    Indeed I won't be jealous of those poor buggers having to redo that code, but yes its needed. The cutting of the mesh causes way too many issues.

    @Deecey said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Like I said I'll bring the beer to the party when it's fixed. 8-D

    I will be there!


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Don't forget Lyrra made Fitroom Helpers, basically magnets fit V4 clothing on another figure.

    https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/dawn-fitroom-helpers/100163/

    https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/pauline-fitroom-kit/112531/

    Maybe an idea to ask her to make something similar for PE.



  • @Biscuits said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Don't forget Lyrra made Fitroom Helpers, basically magnets fit V4 clothing on another figure.

    https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/dawn-fitroom-helpers/100163/

    https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/pauline-fitroom-kit/112531/

    Maybe an idea to ask her to make something similar for PE.

    that's cool <3

    but don't worry, the hires PE mannequins will be killer! The one I showed there was just a demo, and I've learned quite a bit since my experiments from mesh4.5.



  • @mcb1129 said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    @erogenesis Hi there. I'm new to Poser and this forum, so sorry if I don't know all the news and vendors. Who is making these figures? Where will I be able to get them?

    @AmbientShade is making Venus and Orion, not sure where he wants to sell them (ask him for a link, I'm not sure if I can post it here). Ali is making Bella and the beta version is already available here. He'll probably sell it from that site too. I am making Project E, I'll probably sell it from CGbytes and Renderosity.



  • I actually think that the fitting room and the morph tool/fitting brushes work great as they are. These were two of the most extraordinary enhancements I've seen in commercial products in many years. So easy and practical! Gotta love the morph transfer and change to conforming functions.

    Compare that to say soft body; I had such high expectations for soft body, but it turned out to be useless to me. After lots and lots of trying I just gave up on that.

    Anyway, if someone weaponizes the fitting room I wouldn't be against; it would be like transforming a chocolate cake into a 10-story wedding cake, yummy!



  • @fbs7 I agree! Poser made some amazing leaps forward with Chuck (NERD3D) at the helm. He really gave developers a voice.

    I sure wish he would drop in somewhere and say Hi!



  • @fbs7 said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Anyway, if someone weaponizes the fitting room I wouldn't be against; it would be like transforming a chocolate cake into a 10-story wedding cake, yummy!

    It would need functions to grade size 8 dresses to size 14. ;-)



  • @fbs7 said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    I actually think that the fitting room and the morph tool/fitting brushes work great as they are. These were two of the most extraordinary enhancements I've seen in commercial products in many years. So easy and practical! Gotta love the morph transfer and change to conforming functions.

    Compare that to say soft body; I had such high expectations for soft body, but it turned out to be useless to me. After lots and lots of trying I just gave up on that.

    Anyway, if someone weaponizes the fitting room I wouldn't be against; it would be like transforming a chocolate cake into a 10-story wedding cake, yummy!

    As an end-user, it is great, especially once you throw in the fit room magnets that Lyrra makes. I move content from V4/M4 to Dawn/Dusk and Pauline/Paul - 30 second operation. I just wish she made more of them; I'd love to have them for all of the SM figures.

    As far as I am concerned, the fitting room makes dedicated clothing a nice to have vs. have to have. I'll buy dedicated clothing, if it is something I don't already have, if I already have something, I'll have to think about it.



  • I strongly support @erogenesis idea to weaponize the fitting room. One suggestion I submitted through the Twitter-like suggestion system was to quit treating copy morphs from as only for content creators and put the capability in base Poser 12. SM should market the fact that Poser has many more figures available than DS, and you can clothe them all well enough for rendering purposes in the fitting room. You can rig DAZ Genesis 3 and 8 clothing for Poser in the fitting room. But for the clothes to work with anything other than your base Venus, Orion, PE, Bella, Massie, Pauline, Paul, etc, you have to be able to copy morphs from the figure. Converting to a morphed figure with centers matched to morphs doesn't work well. An average user needs that power. That's a Hellfire up the competition's wazoo!



  • @RobZhena said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    I strongly support @erogenesis idea to weaponize the fitting room. One suggestion I submitted through the Twitter-like suggestion system was to quit treating copy morphs from as only for content creators and put the capability in base Poser 12. SM should market the fact that Poser has many more figures available than DS, and you can clothe them all well enough for rendering purposes in the fitting room. You can rig DAZ Genesis 3 and 8 clothing for Poser in the fitting room. But for the clothes to work with anything other than your base Venus, Orion, PE, Bella, Massie, Pauline, Paul, etc, you have to be able to copy morphs from the figure. Converting to a morphed figure with centers matched to morphs doesn't work well. An average user needs that power. That's a Hellfire up the competition's wazoo!

    Definitely agree about the copy morphs from command. It is even more powerful after you use the Dials to Single Morph command.

    That is how I put my characters together - Load base mesh (will ALL morphs); load character; fiddle about with dials; Dials to Single Morph; load clothing; Copy Morphs From; then either reduce the polys, or merge figure & clothing into 1 mesh; delete unused morphs; reload expressions.

    End result - lightweight, clothed figure ready to go to work.



  • Just my two coppers:

    I see the "Fitting Room" as a quick and easy, "do art", sort of solution for fitting formerly incompatible clothing. At least, up to a point. It works, after a fashion, and can yield decent results up to a point, depending upon how complex the objects are.

    But, I would never expect that sort of function to yield perfect or even "pro-quality" results.

    For pro-results, either an entirely new system has to be devised, and even that wouldn't be perfect, or one needs to do things by hand. That being said, I am delighted with Poser's Morph tool, as it brings a heck of a lot of power to bear on tweaking clothes for morphs and deforms. (I do wish some features would be added to that and would like the ability to tweak some functions a bit, but it's still pretty darn great.)



  • @morkonan said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    Just my two coppers:

    I see the "Fitting Room" as a quick and easy, "do art", sort of solution for fitting formerly incompatible clothing. At least, up to a point. It works, after a fashion, and can yield decent results up to a point, depending upon how complex the objects are.

    But, I would never expect that sort of function to yield perfect or even "pro-quality" results.

    For pro-results, either an entirely new system has to be devised, and even that wouldn't be perfect, or one needs to do things by hand. That being said, I am delighted with Poser's Morph tool, as it brings a heck of a lot of power to bear on tweaking clothes for morphs and deforms. (I do wish some features would be added to that and would like the ability to tweak some functions a bit, but it's still pretty darn great.)

    I don't think Erogenesis isn't talking about it being perfect - if that happened, the end user wouldn't need clothing vendors anymore.

    As I read it - it is how can SM get the Fitting room to handle more of the conversion process, to make it easier for the vendors.



  • @ssgbryan said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:
    ..

    As I read it - it is how can SM get the Fitting room to handle more of the conversion process, to make it easier for the vendors.

    Gotcha.

    I suppose that would be nice. But, there are some third-party tools out there that are perfect for many things a vendor would want in regards to conversion capability. I like Autogroup Editor, helps immensely with grouping and preserves the UV (is somewhat difficult to fine tune individual polys in groups by hand,though), Quick Conform, for basic quick rigging transfers and editing out bones (tweaking necessary, though, using the Joint Editor), and Morcloth, for morph transfers. (Though, it takes a bit of fine-tuning, but it yields serviceable results that can be manually tweaked).

    If SM could make the Fitting Room more powerful and could exceed the results already available using third-party apps, without significantly increasing their costs or ours, I'm all for adding super-powers to the Fitting Room! :)



  • I'm really happy that this is sparking up a bit of a discussion. I do hope SM are watching.

    My idea might not be fool-proof, but I think, in general, is has to be a good idea to try and automate content compatibility as much as possible, as long as it results in reasonable quality of course. We need to find a way to relieve the pressure off vendors and artists to make the choice whether or not to support or invest in a figure based on reasons that are as varied and as subjective as there are people in the Poser world. Someone even suggested to have some universal mannequin that can accept all clothes, or can first be made to fit certain clothing, and then transport it to another fit, where it can be baked into the next figure shape, including the original morphs (which would require some serious algorithms). Perhaps, at some point in the future, we can then finally put to bed this idea of the 'uberfigure', and use any figure we need for any situation that requires it. 3D figure art can then finally be a spontaneous thing again for artists, hobbyists and vendors alike... and not some waiting game or some difficult business decision!

    @fbs7 yes, the fitting room is indeed already pretty nifty, I use it a lot! And lol, yes, softbody needs a lot of refinement... but I hope they leave that for later.

    And yes, Chuck was very good. He listened and actually fixed a lot of seriously flawed issues in Poser.



  • That is how I put my characters together - Load base mesh (will ALL morphs); load character; fiddle about with dials; Dials to Single Morph; load clothing; Copy Morphs From; then either reduce the polys, or merge figure & clothing into 1 mesh; delete unused morphs; reload expressions.

    End result - lightweight, clothed figure ready to go to work.

    Never, ever, ever got merge figure to work. Every time Poser either crashes, pushes the character's hair down to their neck, show texture poke through even when hidden polys removed so I got no idea how that works. If I want to waste a day and feel like killing kittens, I play with merging figures.
    Copy morphs works a treat. Reduce polygons is fine. Merge figures is the first through fifth levels of hell.



  • @morkonan You know, the only one of those 3 products - which I bought years ago - that I still use today is Auto Group Editor. And, that's because I find it easier to group in AGE than the modeler or in Poser.

    Quick Conform does not work with weight mapping, and Poser 11's Copy Morphs From is actually more precise than Morphing Clothes.



  • @piersyf said in The future of Poser is the Fitting Room:

    That is how I put my characters together - Load base mesh (will ALL morphs); load character; fiddle about with dials; Dials to Single Morph; load clothing; Copy Morphs From; then either reduce the polys, or merge figure & clothing into 1 mesh; delete unused morphs; reload expressions.

    End result - lightweight, clothed figure ready to go to work.

    Never, ever, ever got merge figure to work. Every time Poser either crashes, pushes the character's hair down to their neck, show texture poke through even when hidden polys removed so I got no idea how that works. If I want to waste a day and feel like killing kittens, I play with merging figures.
    Copy morphs works a treat. Reduce polygons is fine. Merge figures is the first through fifth levels of hell.

    Oh no; sorry for that; merge figures (followed by that cool poly reduction with removal of hidden faces) is very very useful to decrease complexity and increase speed of my animations. I use that all the time, and although I do have the sporadic loss of morphs from time to time, I do't remember having a crash for that function.

    I do backup everything before I try to do that, though.