Clothroom problems?



  • I've seen many times statements that say the cloth room is broken or it sucks without and more expansion on the idea. I know the simulations take time (sometimes too much) and I know they involve a different workflow than conforming clothing. It's not a one click solution. I'm curious. What other problems are there with it?



  • @redphantom The bigger problem for me in the cloth room is the confused way to save simulations.

    I would improve the room with easier and more efficient in the clothes settings , and for the decorated groups, for example a kind of hardness level in them.

    I


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @redphantom I use the clothroom excessive. Most of the time when the simulation sucks, is a selfmade problem by my side.
    So I think many user who say that the cloth room is broken, make some mistakes during the settings or follow confusing tutorials.
    Yes, with some clothes it is slow. This is true, but mostly with very heavy complex outfits.
    But what is also true, the cloth room need an update. Need better handling with decorations. It is by any means far away to be perfect .



  • There is about as much wrong with the cloth room as there is with a hammer. Thankfully the cloth room in Poser is very simple, therefore easy to learn and master. The tricky part is to create optimized cloth geometry, and to work within the limits of the tool. It would be pointless to complain about a hammer just because it makes a lousy paintbrush.



  • @redphantom

    I get failures when there are faces or vertices in the cloth which are overlapping or cutting into each other before the sim is set up. Triangulated meshes also give me trouble. Non-manifold meshes sometimes cause trouble as well, as do non-unified normals in the cloth OBJ. I either try to fix inside Poser Pro 11, or chuck the mesh into Shade 3D and try to run the analysis utility.

    If I really can't fix the problem, I convert to Conforming cloth ( not always possible). I also play with the settings for cloth collision and distance from the figure. Insufficient polygons can cause failure as well (mesh too low resolution). In the end, I may just let the simulation run if it can complete, and then use morph brush to fix the poke through.

    All this is said, assuming that the simulation can run to completion. I have had sims crash Poser repeatedly. I then know it is a fundamental failure of my clothing mesh, and return to source geometry to inspect and correct.



  • @ibr_remote
    That is remarkable because typically simulation with triangular mesh is more stable than quad meshes because tri's cannot 'collapse' like quads can.
    I found the Poser cloth room sensitive for duplicate vertices. Therefore use 'weld identical vertices' when loading. This avoids a lot of problems.
    Self-intersection in the 'zero' condition of course sets the sim off on the wrong foot.
    Edge finishings should be allowed to be separate facets, so overlapping facets must have some distance.
    Other fault made often is that vertices are 'caught' between two collision objects, like under armpits when arms are lowered or between legs when legs are crossed.



  • @redphantom said in Clothroom problems?:

    ...What other problems are there with it?

    IMO, the only problem with the Cloth Room is the lack of a good set of presets for new users and more "ease of accessibility and use" for new users. As it is, it is very powerful, but it is not a "one-click-do-art" sort of process to get satisfactory results.

    The Cloth Room takes time to work out the calculations to yield a result. It takes frames to generate the simulation and time to generate those frames. So, what may seem like "It's just a shirt, why does it take so long" sort of task is really more complicated than that. But, for a new user or one unfamiliar with the process being undertaken, it can seem a bit too complicated.

    In a very practical sense, that means that it will be underutilized and will largely remain an arcane, little-understood, function by many novice/new users. ie: They won't know much about it because the entry-level knowledge required to use it is too high.

    This is the same reason why people find actually rendering a satisfactory render is "too hard." It's not hard, but the entry-level knowledge required is deceptively complex. (This applies to what meshes are suitable for Cloth Sims, as well. Converting (Optional or automatic) meshes for cloth sim is an option, too, though I'm not sure how complex/troublesome that would be for devs.)

    SOLUTIONS - More effort should be made to include easily understood presets. (From dev view, extremely easy and cheap to do. I have no idea why this hasn't been for each release. It's a "blank space" the devs never bothered to fill in, I suppose.) A more detailed solution would be the inclusion of a script that effectively walks a novice user through the basic steps of setting up a simulation, complete with detailed explanations for each stem. (From a dev view, more complex, but doable. Not sure if it would require a code patch or just an expansion/accessory patch)

    Lastly, and more complex, from a dev view, would be revamping the room to include a "Light" version that acted to initiate new users or that would serve for quick, easy, sims, with minimal collisions/calcs that don't require a lot of knowledge to pull off effectively.



  • @redphantom said in Clothroom problems?:

    I've seen many times statements that say the cloth room is broken or it sucks without and more expansion on the idea. I know the simulations take time (sometimes too much) and I know they involve a different workflow than conforming clothing. It's not a one click solution. I'm curious. What other problems are there with it?

    I actually think the cloth room works pretty well (although very, very, very irritatingly slow, specially when compared to Marvelous Designer).

    I can take pretty much any conforming cloth, generate a prop out of it, and then run a dynamic simulation on it, so that works really nice.

    The biggest problem I have is the absence of layers (like Marvelous Designer), so layered dynamic clothes keep intruding on each other all the time.

    Another big irritation is that I can't use the same cloth on multiple simulations on different frame ranges. Multiple simulations would allow the user to select different dynamic/choreographed/constrained groups in different frame ranges, and that would be very useful. As it is, we need to have multiple copies of the same cloth for that.

    The next big trouble I have is that the simulations are too plastic; that is, if a cloth deforms then it doesn't come back to its original shape after the source of the deformation is gone. So when I use the same cloth over an animation I constantly need to have duplicates of the same original cloth to start a new simulation after so many frames, for the reason that after those many frames the original cloth is all deformed and useless.

    Finally, cloth simulations tend to blow themselves up for no apparent reason. People will say "yeah, that's because your underlying mesh has some problem". That's fair, but then again if I'm using a word processor I don't expect it to blow up when I make a typo. If the cloth simulator cannot process some mesh then it needs to say so at the beginning of the simulation, and not explode itself and destroy my document for some mysterious reason. After losing maybe 20 projects because of cloth simulation implosions I ended up with a flow that now I never, never, ever start a cloth simulation withuot first taking a backup of my file.



  • @fbs7 That art about not reverting to original shape - strange. (It could be a memory issue ?). I do get my clothing objects return to original shape when I delete the faulty simulation (that is, if Poser doesn't crash first).



  • @ibr_remote
    Use no drape frames is you want your clothing to return to zero pose at frame 0.
    To reduce/avoid crashes, load objects with 'weld identical vertices'. If you have not updated Poser to the latest version and use a touch/pen tablet, launch from mouse click and not from tablet.



  • @fbs7
    True. Unlike MD Poser does transfer strain info between sims. For MD made garments Poser could infer strain on facet edge level by comparing edge length in 3D definition with edge length in 2D (UV) definition. (MD generated UV maps are true scale), and read hard edges (pressed-in folds) from the metadata.
    This is all a bit new though, and with MD being as easy to communicate with as they are and in their deveopment of novel techniques happily change things version to version I can fully understand other developers, including Smith Micro, not jumping up and down to incorporate interface tools.

    And: a word processor is not a simulator. Stability of a simulation process depends on many things, but the cloth room for me is not notorious for blowing up. I had many more MD simulations end in disaster.



  • @fbs7 said in Clothroom problems?:

    I actually think the cloth room works pretty well (although very, very, very irritatingly slow, specially when compared to Marvelous Designer).

    AFAIK, the origins for the simulation algorithm is an older 3DSMax algorithm that they attained the license for. That's when the Cloth Room was first implemented, IIRC, so that should tell you about how old it is. :) That being said, it was on the leading edge at the time and is still very powerful, though it has some shortcomings when compared to much newer algorithms, especially "real time" ones. MD is a purpose-built clothing app, so that sort of innovation is to be expected. Poser is a different animal.

    Though, a real-time simulation capability would be awesome! The best we've got so far for a quick solution, AFAIK, is the separate app over at Rendo, I think. But, it's still click-and-create, not real-time, and works outside of Poser.



  • The about page attributes the clothroom tech to size8 software. I don't know if that's a division of Autodesk or a previous owner of 3dsmax.



  • @redphantom said in Clothroom problems?:

    The about page attributes the clothroom tech to size8 software. I don't know if that's a division of Autodesk or a previous owner of 3dsmax.

    /shrug

    No idea. I just remember that the original was supposed to have been licensed from the same one that a version of 3DSMax used.

    OK, found their product - https://www.turbosquid.com/Index.cfm/View/TBXPL9

    So, basically, the original was part of 3DS, perhaps known as "Stitch?" (2004) There may have been earlier incarnations, of course.



  • @morkonan said in Clothroom problems?:

    MD is a purpose-built clothing app, so that sort of innovation is to be expected. Poser is a different animal.

    Poser is a zoo holding many animals. The cloth creation part of MD, concentrated in the 2D part of the program, indeed would not fit in the Poser scope like a tailor's workshop would not fit in a dressing room. The 3D part of MD effectively IS the cloth room/fitting room as it should/could be. MD, by design!, absolutely lacks the equivalent of the Pose Room and relies on avatar movements being imported from other apps. MD however is my favourite refitting tool. Garment definitions are stored with strain info so they do go back to original shape when taken off the avatar.

    What is missing in both Poser and MD is body response. You need to shape the avatar to the body as it is shaped when wearing clothes. In Poser you would do this with some morphs or a few strokes (flatten, smooth) of the morph brush. MD specifically leaves that funtions to be fulfilled by another app = Poser.


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to Graphics Forum was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.