Poser Features as Add-ons?



  • @bagginsbill said in Poser Features as Add-ons?:

    @eclark1849 said in Poser Features as Add-ons?:

    @eclark1849 Come to think of it, seems like the SR fixes seem to cause more bugs than they fix. I haven't updated since I bought the program. Everything's working fine so far. I think I'll keep it like it is.

    That's just nonsense. Now you're talking in direct contradiction to the facts.

    All software bug fixing increases the number of bugs while still decreasing the number of unresolved bugs.

    Only the truly incompetent create more problems than they solve.

    Granted, I may have stated that poorly, the bugs don't increase, but new ones do crop up. That said though, how does that square with your last statement about the incompetent, and adding Superfly later? I seem to recall Poser 11 being delayed for release because they were testing Superfly, which was fine with me. I often delay purchasing software anyway because I want to see what bugs people run into.


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    @eclark1849 said in Poser Features as Add-ons?:

    how does that square with your last statement about the incompetent, and adding Superfly later?

    Sorry - I don't know what you're asking there.

    The statement about the incompetent was in regard to your assertion (false) that the service release (or any service release) created more problems than it solved. My point was that for you to say that was almost directly claiming the SM developers are incompetent, since you claimed they make more bugs than they fix.

    The addition of a major new feature, such as SuperFly, is not a demonstration of incompetence. So I'm just not tracking how SuperFly and incompetence fit in the same sentence and need squaring.


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    @eclark1849 said in Poser Features as Add-ons?:

    I seem to recall Poser 11 being delayed for release because they were testing Superfly

    Again - I'm having trouble recognizing your point as well as what facts you're deriving it from. The use of the word "delayed" because they were "testing" is not reflecting the truth about software developement. First it is written, then tested, then released. Those intervals are not "delays".

    All new development also introduces new bugs. No software is "delayed" until all bugs are fixed. All software is released with some known bugs and some unknown bugs which are discovered later. Service releases are created to address those bugs over time.

    The "delay" called "the testing cycle" is not unexpected.

    Was there publication of some internal memo indicating that the actual release was originally planned to happen much earlier than it actually took place?


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    @eclark1849

    Hi Earl, you use Blender right? Me too.
    Blender is very-very stable on my systems. The only issues I am having is with some of the add-ons.

    I truly hope that Poser can stay away from an "add-on" system.

    It would make the coders hairs grey, the testers hair grey, the end users hair grey, and the vendors hairs even more grey.

    Can you imagine that you see something very-very nice that you want to buy and then in the comments it says; Yeah, but for this or that to work properly you need to buy add-on X,Y,or Z.

    And as BB clearly said; I would only make Poser less stable, less user friendly, more buggy and a LOT more costly.

    See the free competition software.
    It is FREE, but when you buy all the tools that are included in Poser?
    Suddenly, it is not so stable, not so end user friendly, and not so cheap any more.



  • @bagginsbill I thought Chuck called it a delay, but I concede it was being tested. I can't check, because I think it was at RDNA. Renderosity might have the post, but I can never make their forum search work.


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    @eclark1849
    If Poser wants to remain a leading 3D app, it has to stay a complete package, providing all tools at hand, and leaving the 3Dart freedom to the end user.



  • @vilters Who said it wouldn't be a complete package? The pro version would still be available. The add-ons would be for the non-pro version.



  • If Poser does this, I'm finished buying Poser.

    I've been down this nickle and dime approach before and the nickles and dimes they charge for addons cost a pretty penny.

    No. Thank. You.



  • My two cents on this, as a customer.

    I'm extremely suspicious of programs that have core features as "optional" paid packages. I always fear that what I buy will not be enough, and then I'll have to buy more stuff that ends up being more expensive than the original purchase.

    With one or two options of a packaged final product I'm more confident on what I buy, instead of a main package and then 10 paid options. A sales manager once told me that customers don't mind paying more, but they hate surprises.

    Consider SketchUp; I love that product, but I was extremely irritated when I found that the way to export OBJ was to buy the $499 option. It made no sense to me, as OBJ is an extremely simple file format. I almost stopped using it for that reason alone. What saved SketchUp for me is that I found a very practical Collada to FBX to OBJ/OBJ to FBX to Collada converter from Autocad, which works nicely for me.

    So, paid options if you wish, but no surprises from customers with the old bait-and-switch, as that backfires really fast I think.



  • @Glitterati3D You use Pro anyway, Traci. This wouldn't affect you at all. All I can say is I would have bought this. It took me some time to switch over to Poser Pro from regular Poser. I would have loved the option of being able to buy the features I wanted and to not bother with the ones i didn't want and still don't use. Obviously, this isn't the path for everyone.


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    We've been using various 3rd party add-ons for years already without much issue from clothing converters to dynamics to render engines and library managers. And until Pro 2014 included bullet physics, Poser physics was available since Poser 6 or 7 as a plug-in. I don't see the issue here. If game companies can do it and manage to still keep their engines free and working correctly with all the optional add-ons they offer, then a software package like Poser that's supposed to take itself seriously in the 3D world should be able to do the same.



  • @AmbientShade said in Poser Features as Add-ons?:

    We've been using various 3rd party add-ons for years already without much issue from clothing converters to dynamics to render engines and library managers. And until Pro 2014 included bullet physics, Poser physics was available since Poser 6 or 7 as a plug-in. I don't see the issue here. If game companies can do it and manage to still keep their engines free and working correctly with all the optional add-ons they offer, then a software package like Poser that's supposed to take itself seriously in the 3D world should be able to do the same.

    Game companies have a revenue stream based on games. They can make the engine free.

    Those 3rd party add-ons were not core features. They were niche items, that added value (I don't know if I have all of them, but I certainly have a lot of them).

    If you want to see how badly addons of core features can work, see the competition, especially when they went from version 3 to version 4. Add up all of those scripts that duplicate core Poser functionality, and you end up spending a lot more than the cost of Poser (and you still don't have a lot of core functionality of Poser, either).

    I do wish more vendors would take advantage of the add-on framework.


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    @ssgbryan
    So you want vendors to use the add-on framework but not the developers themselves?

    And what are you classifying as core features? Aside from LAMH and VWD - which would run about $80 combined if you don't get them on sale, what else is missing?

    Too many variables in that statement for me to agree or disagree with.

    Poser physics isn't a core feature so not having it in the software doesn't affect the core software. And like i said earlier, prior to 2014 it was a plug-in, which demonstrates that the plug-in method is an option without diminishing functionality of the core features. I don't know if it used the bullet engine or something else. Wardrobe Wizard was also a plugin for years. Did that cause problems with the core software for those who didn't have it?

    I'm not familiar with version 3 of "that other software" so I don't have it to compare or contrast with. I'm only familiar with the current version, which is the only one that matters since all the others are past iterations.



  • @ssgbryan Okay, let me address something, 1. We currently have three versions of Poser NOW. Regular Poser 11, Poser Pro 11, and Poser Pro Game Dev. Now, I am NOT saying or suggesting that ANY version be done away with. Only that Poser 11 be given add-ons like the Poser Pro versions. And Shane's right, we have had add-ons before. Some of your favorite python scripts are addo-ons to what Poser can already do. Wardrobe Wizard was an add-on. And Poser includes several utility scripts that turn off or delete lights. There are scripts that help you better manage your Poser library. Snarlygribbly's written several add-ons, that help you create snow in Poser, optimise settings to help you create better renders of figures. Still don't like add-ons?



  • @eclark1849 said in Poser Features as Add-ons?:

    ...Still don't like add-ons?

    Your point is very well taken.

    I think that "expansion packs", that give customers more functions aren't really viable. They want a fully-featured program right out of the box. I think that focused packages are "OK", especially introductory/lower-end versions, just so long as they have "upgrade" packs so they can basically buy the more robust version.

    Python is Poser's "add-on" pack, for regular users. It has been since it was added to Poser. That's the keyhole that most things considered to be "add-ons" work with. But, it also orphans more add-ons than <insert tyrant dictator here>. It's also probably the best "plug and play" feature Poser has in regards to add-ons.

    I have no idea how to fix the script-orphaning problem, since the idea is that languages have to progress, anyway, if they're to be adopted and used for contemporary purposes.

    Other "add-ons" have gained popularity, here and there, especially ones that are value-added. Morph programs, 3D modelers writing CR2s, cr2 editors, content organizers, rendering helpers, etc. These have all been very popular and are, for the most part, third-party outside applications. (Note: There are also some particular export/import scripts and such available for those using certain 3D apps.)

    The python potentates would have more substantial stuff to add, but I'd say that if we wanted to see more "expansion" opportunity for Poser and more functions/capability added, increasing Poser's end-cost value, then these are the people to weigh in. If they are made happy by having increased access to Poser's inner workings (or easier) and can script away to their hearts content, then we might see more powerful, more user-friendly, additions being made by third-parties.

    Python - Poser has it. Get the python guys weighing in on what they'd like to see and be able to use, publicize that, get it "known", and it may have some pretty good advantages for both SM and users.



  • @eclark1849 said in Poser Features as Add-ons?:

    @ssgbryan Okay, let me address something, 1. We currently have three versions of Poser NOW. Regular Poser 11, Poser Pro 11, and Poser Pro Game Dev. Now, I am NOT saying or suggesting that ANY version be done away with. Only that Poser 11 be given add-ons like the Poser Pro versions. And Shane's right, we have had add-ons before. Some of your favorite python scripts are addo-ons to what Poser can already do. Wardrobe Wizard was an add-on. And Poser includes several utility scripts that turn off or delete lights. There are scripts that help you better manage your Poser library. Snarlygribbly's written several add-ons, that help you create snow in Poser, optimise settings to help you create better renders of figures. Still don't like add-ons?

    You don't understand it from a programming standpoint. We have 2 code bases - 32-bit (which isn't long for this world) and 64-bit. The whole reason SM is running those sales for Poser Pro on a regular basis is to get people moving to 1 code base, which is easier to support from a programming standpoint. Pay for Poser Pro, get the Pro license, and the Pro features.

    What you want won't translate into more Poser sales.

    You want advanced features - pay for the advanced version.

    The add-on frame work allows 3rd parties to add features that, by themselves, wouldn't justify the development costs for SM.



  • @ssgbryan Hmm, then that might explain why SM doesn't fix known issues with Poser Pro's core features or add new ones. It's not worth their time. Tell me the part again how if I want advanced features that don't work properly and won't be addressed for years, I should pay for the advanced version. :)


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    @eclark1849 Seriously?
    That's a bit unfair to the developers past and present. There have been a number of new features added to Poser over the last few years. And if you aren't willing to update to the latest SR then you don't really get to complain about what is and isn't working properly and expect to be taken seriously.

    Some things take a lot more time and planning to upgrade or add in than others.


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    @eclark1849
    Earl? At one point you wanted to become a beta tester and now you say you don't even update with the SR's that contain the bug fixes????? Huh !

    Only 3 things can kill Poser :

    • Going cloudware
    • Going subscription
    • Going the "add-on" route.


  • @eclark1849

    Get up to speed with the software before you try and initiate change.

    If you don't keep up with SRs you have no right to complain about bugs, or their solving, or lack there of.

    You claim that Game Dev is still a separate program. You are on SM's web site so look at what they sell. No Game Dev. Those features are part of Poser Pro.

    There is an addon structure in Poser. The program was designed with a place to hook them into the core. It's called Addons for some strange reason and contains such items by default such as Python or Kinect Capture. The addon framework was specifically set up to make the inclusion of new features by third parties or the Poser team themselves easier and modular. Something you seem to feel would make Poser better if added?

    There is a free alternative to Poser that works the way you ask. Stuff breaks with every addon and product update. It is never fixed. Just ignored till the next update in the permanent beta cycle where new problems arise. For the folk that never update their software, I suppose this might be a solution. Just wait for the new beta and ignore existing issues. I for one am glad that is not the road taken by SM.