Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:)



  • Particles would be great and with all the bells and whistles that comes with that: fountains, fireworks, clouds of butterflies and so on. Fluids sounds also great.

    best regards,

    Bopper.



  • The thing with metaballs is animation.

    You can model metaballs in something else that's a modelling tool, and then have a static object imported into Poser. That's fantastic.

    But you can't animate that. The only way to animate an object modelled with metaballs is to have the metaballs in Poser.

    So say that I want to animate a snow landscape where steps are appearing in the snow; easily done with metaballs; but then I can't have these metaballs in Blender and then export the different meshes as morph.

    Say that I want to animate an avalanche in 500 frames using Metaballs. I'm not going to build 500 obj in Blender and then import 500 objects in my animation.

    Say that I want to animate a cloud using metaballs; same thing.

    I think that even a simple implementation of metaballs, without textures, with only positive and negative spheres (and maybe a metacube) enables an animator to do very interesting things in an animation. I understand limited bandwidth for deveopment (I'm a lead programmer at IBM), but I think a simple implementation can be accomplished without excessive spending, for the reason that the algorithms are well known.

    So I argue to not have anything fancy and expensive, but direct and straightforward.

    Now, while I appreciate people having their own opinion of why they don't use some feature, I also have my opinions of why I don't find ray tracing or Cycles of any utility to me. Yet I don't go around arguing with everybody that poser should not develop ray tracing or Cycles any more.

    So anyone that thinks that metaballs are useless, please tell me how I make a 500 frames avalanche in Poser without Metaballs, or else please respect my opinion that metaballs are an indispensable animation tool.


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    Particles please. Since forever I wish this for Poser :)



  • Agree with @eclark1849 regarding the instancing and light portals and I would add Cycles Tone mapping and physical camera with ISO settings etc this would be very helpful as well

    Regarding the particles and metablobs etc if its possible then add it as well

    Hope this helps

    Thanks, Jura



  • About particles, flames and fluids, these would be nice to me if easy to use. I find controlling any of these effects quite bewildering, as I never manage them to do what I want in Blender.

    So I guess that a more experienced person will find them more interesting.

    Now, an existing effect that is very much in my desires is Soft Body. Current soft body implementation in Poser is rather pitiful; I can't use it for the reason it's too sensitive and it deforms the object even without any movement.

    Let me give an example: blank document, add a ball, open Bullet window, New Simulation, Objects / add cylinder under Soft Dynamics, click in "Live simulation"; the ball immediately collapses into the ground. Then you want to stop it from collapsing - add some internal pressure, say 1; now you have half a ball squashed into the ground - that's not what I wanted.. I wanted a ball that would squish around as it's moves, but that still has the shape of a ball after it stops moving; and if that was a mesh with any detail, adding 1 of internal pressure will completely erase all details.

    Also, even if I set gravity = 0, the ball will still fall to the ground, and keep moving around on its own.

    So, what I desire for soft body is something akin to cartoon effects, where the object deforms during movement but gets back to its original shape after it stops. I don't need a tomato being scientifically squashed into the ground, I'm not in tomato squashing business... I want a tomato that says "ya-ba-la-ba-dooooooo!"... runs left.. and then the top deforms right to give an exaggerated sense of movement, and when it stops the top deforms left to exaggerate the sense of sudden stopping, and then the top gts back to where it was.

    Thanks!



  • @raven Okay, but I have to agree with Bopper. particles and Fluid sims would do that as well and better.


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    @eclark1849 said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @raven Okay, but I have to agree with Bopper. particles and Fluid sims would do that as well and better.

    I think you misunderstand. The particles move around, but it's metaballs that merge them into a watery surface instead of a bajillion individual spherical water drops.

    There are other water simulation systems, but particles + metablobs moved around BY those particles is how you get reasonable fast approximations to liquids or gels or pastes.

    Search for you tube videos with metaball fluid - you'll see.



  • @fbs7 I'm not arguing against anything. My argument is that you can do it now with a little creativity in Poser. And adding Particles and fluid and smoke sims instead would still give you most if not all you're asking for. So if it comes down to a vote, sorry, I vote for Particles and Fluids sims.



  • @fbs7 said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    About particles, flames and fluids, these would be nice to me if easy to use.

    This. Instancing is a priority though and if we have to choose between them I'd still prefer instancing, much more useful.


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    Example:



  • Well slightly OT, but since "eClark 1849" mentioned it briefly in post above:

    I'd trade all "meatballs", particles, fluids and whatever for an instancing system!

    and @@ fbs7, your avalanche would look rather boring without hundreds of instanced trees overrun by that avalanche...

    Just sayin':
    How often do you folks render a figure in a filling up bathtub, or an avalanche?
    OTOH, how often do you render scenes where instancing would be a heavenly feature to free sorely needed RAM? (don't overlook the forest for the trees, or imagine a bar scene with hundreds of glasses and bottles in the cupboard)

    This metaballs discussion reminds me of the hype about Bullet physics a few years ago. Some yelled for it, and they got it. Now, how often is that feature actually used today? Show me some examples!

    Sorry, I don't want to sound rude, but why not being a bit more realistic and down-to-earth?
    Focus on things that are really helpful in our everyday work. Instead of wishing for eclectic features that only a tiny fraction of Poser users actually will use, add some useful things to go on pars with the competition.
    DAZ already has instancing AFAIK.
    Poor "obsolete" Poser still needs hundreds of separate props for a simple forest scene!
    For instance...

    Karina

    P.S.:
    And while I'm OT anyway, "Please pretty please with cherry on top":
    Add a simple flag to each actor in a Pz3, pz2, and pp2 file "collapsed 1" like you have in the groups already, which will tell Poser to open the hierachy editor without every button or the hundreds of body parts in a hose UNCOLLAPSED over and over again, making the hierarchy list in big scenes miles long!



  • @bagginsbill said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @eclark1849 said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @raven Okay, but I have to agree with Bopper. particles and Fluid sims would do that as well and better.

    I think you misunderstand. The particles move around, but it's metaballs that merge them into a watery surface instead of a bajillion individual spherical water drops.

    There are other water simulation systems, but particles + metablobs moved around BY those particles is how you get reasonable fast approximations to liquids or gels or pastes.

    Search for you tube videos with metaball fluid - you'll see.

    Oh! That sounds juicy! Great I am in!


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    Compare to this video, where the particles are NOT merged by metaballs. They remain as individual spheres which is just useless.


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    @karina Karina, Instancing is on my wishlist since years. I agree here. I am more a landscape renderer, Figurers like V4, Dawn, etc..are just second priority in my scenes. Could save many hairs a proper instancer here for grass, tree, flowers.


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    Nobody disputes the need for instancing.

    But the lead developer asked us what we use metaballs for.

    The answer is not instancing.

    Waah.

    Oh - here's something - you can use toothpicks to make a ship. Maybe you want to ask for toothpicks.

    0_1504891898190_toothpick ship.jpg



  • An Instancer would be great too, but I think one can also use particles for still frame renders, not only for animations



  • @karina said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    and @@ fbs7, your avalanche would look rather boring without hundreds of instanced trees overrun by that avalanche...

    Sorry, I don't want to sound rude, but why not being a bit more realistic and down-to-earth?

    Hey, I'm all for instancing too; I could then add some crowd to watch my cheerleaders, haha...

    About being down to earth, I'm all for it; that's why I think that a simple implementation of metaballs costs very little. There's plenty of public domain code for 3D metaballs, just need to base on that.

    Now, there are some advanced topics with metaballs; for example texture mapping; I really don't get how some folks manage to use the same texture with dynamic metaballs when the number of vertices in the object changes. It sounds complicated to implement, maybe even proprietary; so I wouldn't ask for that.

    I almost always only ask for simple things.



  • @bagginsbill I believe instancing was mentioned because of this in the OP. "If the team were to spend time implementing this specific thing, would it be worth it as a trade off for another needed feature or Wishlist item?" Instancing happened to be the other needed feature most of us wish for. :)



  • @karina said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    Just sayin':
    How often do you folks render a figure in a filling up bathtub, or an avalanche?
    OTOH, how often do you render scenes where instancing would be a heavenly feature to free sorely needed RAM? (don't overlook the forest for the trees, or imagine a bar scene with hundreds of glasses and bottles in the cupboard)

    Think of all the glasses in the bar that need filling up :)

    This metaballs discussion reminds me of the hype about Bullet physics a few years ago. Some yelled for it, and they got it. Now, how often is that feature actually used today? Show me some examples!

    @erogenesis showed a little anim he did using the soft-body Bullet physics not long ago

    Sorry, I don't want to sound rude, but why not being a bit more realistic and down-to-earth?
    Focus on things that are really helpful in our everyday work. Instead of wishing for eclectic features that only a tiny fraction of Poser users actually will use, add some useful things to go on pars with the competition.

    So because it isn't in your remit it's a waste of time and resources?

    DAZ already has instancing AFAIK.
    Poor "obsolete" Poser still needs hundreds of separate props for a simple forest scene!

    Yes instancing would be good, but again, how many people just do pinup style renders where there is no need for instancing? By that logic instancing isn't needed.

    Just because features aren't shown being used in forums, doesn't mean those features aren't wanted or being used.



  • Merci Ladonna,

    I'm doing both and mostly focused on people.
    But without a landscape we only get the infamous "test renders" against a grey background.
    I like to render my figures IN a landscape, and them interacting with it.

    E.g., imagine a figure walking in a wood (just to keep up that example):
    Sure you could render it against a photo background.
    But what about the shadows cast on that figure by the trees? Just try to load three realistic trees to cast shadows and Poser seriously starts to choke.

    And sorry BB, I could live well if the waterfall in the background would have no metaballs (should I ever wish to animate my still render...)

    Karina