Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:)



  • @bagginsbill I believe instancing was mentioned because of this in the OP. "If the team were to spend time implementing this specific thing, would it be worth it as a trade off for another needed feature or Wishlist item?" Instancing happened to be the other needed feature most of us wish for. :)



  • @karina said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    Just sayin':
    How often do you folks render a figure in a filling up bathtub, or an avalanche?
    OTOH, how often do you render scenes where instancing would be a heavenly feature to free sorely needed RAM? (don't overlook the forest for the trees, or imagine a bar scene with hundreds of glasses and bottles in the cupboard)

    Think of all the glasses in the bar that need filling up :)

    This metaballs discussion reminds me of the hype about Bullet physics a few years ago. Some yelled for it, and they got it. Now, how often is that feature actually used today? Show me some examples!

    @erogenesis showed a little anim he did using the soft-body Bullet physics not long ago

    Sorry, I don't want to sound rude, but why not being a bit more realistic and down-to-earth?
    Focus on things that are really helpful in our everyday work. Instead of wishing for eclectic features that only a tiny fraction of Poser users actually will use, add some useful things to go on pars with the competition.

    So because it isn't in your remit it's a waste of time and resources?

    DAZ already has instancing AFAIK.
    Poor "obsolete" Poser still needs hundreds of separate props for a simple forest scene!

    Yes instancing would be good, but again, how many people just do pinup style renders where there is no need for instancing? By that logic instancing isn't needed.

    Just because features aren't shown being used in forums, doesn't mean those features aren't wanted or being used.



  • Merci Ladonna,

    I'm doing both and mostly focused on people.
    But without a landscape we only get the infamous "test renders" against a grey background.
    I like to render my figures IN a landscape, and them interacting with it.

    E.g., imagine a figure walking in a wood (just to keep up that example):
    Sure you could render it against a photo background.
    But what about the shadows cast on that figure by the trees? Just try to load three realistic trees to cast shadows and Poser seriously starts to choke.

    And sorry BB, I could live well if the waterfall in the background would have no metaballs (should I ever wish to animate my still render...)

    Karina



  • @karina said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    Sure you could render it against a photo background.

    This reminds me ... there appears to be a bug in regards to rendering against a photo background in SuperFly. After turning off the ground (The Construct), you can see the background image as normal. However, let's say you are rendering against a background image that is portrait aspect (taller than it is wide). The image previews fine, but it appears as though when rendering it resizes the aspect ratio of the background image into a square. IIRC, this doesn't happen in FireFly (I have to check again).


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    @karina I know what you mean :) Pin Ups are not my style. Love to watch others Pin up work, but I am not good with this.
    If Poser could do proper Instances, this would be awesome. Use sometimes the Instance for TerraDome. But it only works in TerraDome and is very heavy, because it use the full geometry from the Plants. With 300 Plants you struggle already a lot, even with a good machine. And 300 for a forest scene is quick done.



  • @bagginsbill Great demo. Is that possible now in Poser .. if not, what would it require? Is Cycles != Blender? Could you do it in Python in Poser?



  • @Deecey And if you crop your image to a square first?



  • @Ladonna said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    If Poser could do proper Instances, this would be awesome. Use sometimes the Instance for TerraDome. But it only works in TerraDome and is very heavy, because it use the full geometry from the Plants. With 300 Plants you struggle already a lot, even with a good machine. And 300 for a forest scene is quick done.

    I'm thinking a simple way to instance static stuff is to use something like hair editor, just like we do it now, and then instead of making it grow a polyline of a given size make it grow a prop of a given size (say a grass leaf).

    Voila, simple instancing!

    I'm actually trying to decide if I'm making a joke or not, and it's one of those cases I honestly don't know, haha



  • @fbs7 said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @Ladonna said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    If Poser could do proper Instances, this would be awesome. Use sometimes the Instance for TerraDome. But it only works in TerraDome and is very heavy, because it use the full geometry from the Plants. With 300 Plants you struggle already a lot, even with a good machine. And 300 for a forest scene is quick done.

    I'm thinking a simple way to instance static stuff is to use something like hair editor, just like we do it now, and then instead of making it grow a polyline of a given size make it grow a prop of a given size (say a grass leaf).

    Voila, simple instancing!

    I'm actually trying to decide if I'm making a joke or not, and it's one of those cases I honestly don't know, haha

    but it would be fun growing a lot of grass leaves or many mini trees into someone's head, haha :D



  • @h.elwood.gilliland said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @Deecey And if you crop your image to a square first?

    Not always a solution, there are times you want to have your background image non-square (for example, rendering to video, or doing promotional renders for content promotion). I would suspect the same happens with background video as well. I will dig into it a bit.



  • @bagginsbill Hmm... Meta balls or fluid sims... Let me think...



  • Blimey!
    You folks are replying faster than i can type my posts...

    I've made my point and derailed the thread already (sorry!)
    So I'll bow out now.

    Cheers!
    Karina


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    Well I agree a true fluid simulation is superior to metaballs. But I didn't really think the Poser team would even tackle such a thing.

    As has been stated more than once, metaballs are cheap. They are computationally simple both to program and to execute.

    Fluid sims - oh my. If the new team is that good, well, yeah do that instead.

    Metaballs is to fluid simulation as ambient occlusion is to full global illumination. It's a cheap hack that ordinary humans with ordinary computers and ordinary budgets can afford.



  • @h.elwood.gilliland said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    And if you crop your image to a square first?

    Oh sure. Now that I'm trying to test it, I can't reproduce it. So now I have to figure out what triggers it.

    Isn't that always the way? LOL



  • @bagginsbill I wasn't arguing against metaballs, but experience has taught me that once Poser adds a feature, it takes an act of Congress to get rid of it. So maybe never. :D



  • @h-elwood-gilliland
    OK my 5 cents in this:
    I would say let Poser do and become better in what Poser is known for and good at. There is no need for a diluted Blender but there is need for a better Poser.
    Of course it would be fun to have in Poser a method to create 'geometry' without the mess of meshes, Isosurfaces were my favorite toy in PovRay, and those combined with the power of the Material room would be awesome, but there are other and IMHO higher priorities. Unless the meta- or iso- object technology is a prelude to awesome figure technology with an elastic skin mesh 'floating' in a force field of muscle actions, and volume constraints, I would say concentrate on aspects that Poser's core business can benefit from:

    • making Poser rock-stable
    • dynamic clothing (Liaise with Marvelous Designer)
    • figure no longer separate objects and cut mesh but single mesh; .
    • dynamic hair
    • support content Xchange beween figures
    • add DAZ formats, unless encrypted, as import and export formats.


  • @F_Verbaas said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @h-elwood-gilliland
    OK my 5 cents in this:
    I would say let Poser do and become better in what Poser is known for and good at. There is no need for a diluted Blender but there is need for a better Poser.
    Of course it would be fun to have in Poser a method to create 'geometry' without the mess of meshes, Isosurfaces were my favorite toy in PovRay, and those combined with the power of the Material room would be awesome, but there are other and IMHO higher priorities. Unless the meta- or iso- object technology is a prelude to awesome figure technology with an elastic skin mesh 'floating' in a force field of muscle actions, and volume constraints, I would say concentrate on aspects that Poser's core business can benefit from:

    • making Poser rock-stable
    • dynamic clothing (Liaise with Marvelous Designer)
    • figure no longer separate objects and cut mesh but single mesh; .
    • dynamic hair
    • support content Xchange beween figures
    • add DAZ formats, unless encrypted, as import and export formats.

    These would definitely be high on my list as well. Your third would be my #1. ;-)



  • @F_Verbaas Actually, I wouldn't mind having something like a "BlenderFusion" for Poser where we can make and run sims in Blender then port them over to Poser for rendering or animation.



  • @F_Verbaas said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @h-elwood-gilliland
    OK my 5 cents in this:
    I would say let Poser do and become better in what Poser is known for and good at. There is no need for a diluted Blender but there is need for a better Poser.
    Of course it would be fun to have in Poser a method to create 'geometry' without the mess of meshes, Isosurfaces were my favorite toy in PovRay, and those combined with the power of the Material room would be awesome, but there are other and IMHO higher priorities. Unless the meta- or iso- object technology is a prelude to awesome figure technology with an elastic skin mesh 'floating' in a force field of muscle actions, and volume constraints, I would say concentrate on aspects that Poser's core business can benefit from:

    • making Poser rock-stable
    • dynamic clothing (Liaise with Marvelous Designer)
    • figure no longer separate objects and cut mesh but single mesh; .
    • dynamic hair
    • support content Xchange beween figures
    • add DAZ formats, unless encrypted, as import and export formats.

    Hey, what makes a Ferrari is a lot of things above a wrench, but if you need to replace a tire in the Ferrari then the wrench gets pretty important.

    Metaball is just a humble inexpensive wrench. It's part of the minimum tools a Ferrari needs to have.

    It's not like we need to choose between the engine or the wrench, because one costs $100K and the other costs $10. So the argument that if they add some simple implementation of metaballs, then that will preclude I dunno Cycles Mk III... that I don't believe. Make it simple; avoid fancy stuff.

    Heck, someone had written the thing in Python 15 years ago and it worked wondefully; then someone else also made another attempt at Python some 2-3 years, but for some reason didnt monetize it (something about holes showing in the metaballs).


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    @h-elwood-gilliland : I submitted the metablobs request with the glass horsey.0_1504901770060_rolleyes.gif It was a demo of what a non-modeling Poser user could quickly put together. But building props (and figures - the blobs will move smoothly - think Sta-Puft marshmallow man) is only a secondary consideration.

    @bagginsbill has already well made my argument of priority, which is that metablobs provide a fluid/vapor simulator with these advantages:

    • relatively easy to code

    • metablobs fuse smoothly into a single mass; you don't see sharp joints or interior surfaces (see glass horse), as is the case with particle spheres.

    • metablobs are considerably lighter on system resources than a more rigorous fluid simulator. Serious fluid dynamics involves differential calculus and nonlinear/abstract algebra.

    I would see metablobs and particles as complementary, rather than binary alternatives. That is, I would like Poser to have both; each does some tasks better than the other.

    For particles, I would like to be able to import my own OBJ, retaining multiple material zones and UV mapping. A limitation of Particles 3 is that it only allows for one material zone, and only procedural shaders.
    For particles, we would need a life node, so that fire can begin as bright yellow, dim to red, then fade to black/transparent.