Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:)



  • @F_Verbaas Actually, I wouldn't mind having something like a "BlenderFusion" for Poser where we can make and run sims in Blender then port them over to Poser for rendering or animation.



  • @F_Verbaas said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @h-elwood-gilliland
    OK my 5 cents in this:
    I would say let Poser do and become better in what Poser is known for and good at. There is no need for a diluted Blender but there is need for a better Poser.
    Of course it would be fun to have in Poser a method to create 'geometry' without the mess of meshes, Isosurfaces were my favorite toy in PovRay, and those combined with the power of the Material room would be awesome, but there are other and IMHO higher priorities. Unless the meta- or iso- object technology is a prelude to awesome figure technology with an elastic skin mesh 'floating' in a force field of muscle actions, and volume constraints, I would say concentrate on aspects that Poser's core business can benefit from:

    • making Poser rock-stable
    • dynamic clothing (Liaise with Marvelous Designer)
    • figure no longer separate objects and cut mesh but single mesh; .
    • dynamic hair
    • support content Xchange beween figures
    • add DAZ formats, unless encrypted, as import and export formats.

    Hey, what makes a Ferrari is a lot of things above a wrench, but if you need to replace a tire in the Ferrari then the wrench gets pretty important.

    Metaball is just a humble inexpensive wrench. It's part of the minimum tools a Ferrari needs to have.

    It's not like we need to choose between the engine or the wrench, because one costs $100K and the other costs $10. So the argument that if they add some simple implementation of metaballs, then that will preclude I dunno Cycles Mk III... that I don't believe. Make it simple; avoid fancy stuff.

    Heck, someone had written the thing in Python 15 years ago and it worked wondefully; then someone else also made another attempt at Python some 2-3 years, but for some reason didnt monetize it (something about holes showing in the metaballs).


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    @h-elwood-gilliland : I submitted the metablobs request with the glass horsey.0_1504901770060_rolleyes.gif It was a demo of what a non-modeling Poser user could quickly put together. But building props (and figures - the blobs will move smoothly - think Sta-Puft marshmallow man) is only a secondary consideration.

    @bagginsbill has already well made my argument of priority, which is that metablobs provide a fluid/vapor simulator with these advantages:

    • relatively easy to code

    • metablobs fuse smoothly into a single mass; you don't see sharp joints or interior surfaces (see glass horse), as is the case with particle spheres.

    • metablobs are considerably lighter on system resources than a more rigorous fluid simulator. Serious fluid dynamics involves differential calculus and nonlinear/abstract algebra.

    I would see metablobs and particles as complementary, rather than binary alternatives. That is, I would like Poser to have both; each does some tasks better than the other.

    For particles, I would like to be able to import my own OBJ, retaining multiple material zones and UV mapping. A limitation of Particles 3 is that it only allows for one material zone, and only procedural shaders.
    For particles, we would need a life node, so that fire can begin as bright yellow, dim to red, then fade to black/transparent.



  • @fbs7
    ... which basically shows again the Metaballs are something that can be done as a 3rd party development outside Poser, and the Poser team can focus on their core business.
    If the Metaballs add-on reveals bugs in Poser: these should be addressed like any other bug encountered.

    @eclark1849
    I was about making a follow-up about some backdoor entry from Blender to take advantage of what Blender is good at. LOL!
    I am with you there.

    @Deecey
    I had no particular order in mind, but it seems we are largely on the same line here.


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    I'd like to stress that the glass horse is not the end goal. The only reason I used the horse (with a volumteric glass shader) was to display some capabilities of metablobs which would go unseen if I had used flickering flames or swirling vapor. For flames, I would soften the exterior surface with an edge_blend to avoid the appearance of a sharply defined boundary surface. Likewise for smoke/steam.

    I submitted the request for metablobs because I thought it could give a goodly amount of benefit (fluid/vapor/flame simulator) at a relatively modest cost in developer man-hours. If I'm wrong about the benefit/cost balance, then by all means, disregard my request.

    Metablobs isn't my greatest feature wish; that would be networked rendering - distributing buckets/samples across a network to speed a single complex/large render.



  • @F_Verbaas said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @fbs7
    ... which basically shows again the Metaballs are something that can be done as a 3rd party development outside Poser, and the Poser team can focus on their core business.
    If the Metaballs add-on reveals bugs in Poser: these should be addressed like any other bug encountered.

    The difference between implementing inside Poser and in Python is that inside Poser that's compiled code while Python is interpreted, so C is about 3 orders of magnitude (or 1,000 times) faster than Python.

    The point of saying that someone could do that in Python was to mean the thing is feasible even on from the outside of the API. It's not to advocate it should be done in python.

    I don't get it; people just have a mindset against feature "X" (add "X" here), as if the program was ruined if these were added. Don't want "X", just don't use it.

    I never argued against anything any other person has proposed, it baffles me that people feel the need to do exactly that.



  • If blobs or some kind of particle system could be used to create atmospherics: rain, snow, dust particles, then an extra room, the "Enviromental" room for ex., might be worth considering. Most Poser renders are photo realistic and as of now, without post work they look environmentally "empty".



  • By the way, this entire discussion about metaballs and metablobs is making me depressed.

    New software versions, specially those I pay $600 for, are like chocolate boxes: you never know what you'll get, but you know it will be delicious. Yet in this it feels like we're the passengers in the Titanic, fighting for a place in the lifeboat, and people seem to think that if someone gets in the lifeboat then they will be left out.

    Having been through enough of that in successive downsizings in the corporate world, I don't really care for the same in a hobby. I therefore don't care in seeing this thread transformed from "tell us your desires" into "tell us which flavors should we have in an ice cream shop that has exactly 5 flavors". That leads to a fight over the 5 flavors.

    Also, an ice cream shop with 5 excellent flavors will always be outsold by a competitor that has 100 flavors, even if those are rather mediocre, because people are always looking for something different. Even if 90% of the sales are for vanilla and chocolate, the other 98 flavors get people in.

    Then I look a DAZ and notice they have meta-pistachio-balls; I don't have even a single way to get my pistachio in Poser, so I'm bummed. I don't care how many people like or dislike pistachio; I like it and DAZ has it and I wouldn't have to fight for it there, so they have my desire.

    I see DAZ working hard to create a set of appeals that are not in Poser; that's probably on purpose, I suppose; that way they manage to create desire in me (and others), even if I completely hate the horrible animation procedure that DAZ has (or had, per the last time I checked). I think that similarly they manage to create a desire in other people that are much less vocal than me.

    And that's my final argument to have no only metaballs but also a whole set of other small tools, even if they are simple and modest and don't sell well, the reason being that when competition has them and you don't, you are at a disadvantage. So improve your best-selling chocolate and vanilla, but at the same time give the clients the pistachio, the zuchini, the pepper, the carrot, the soy sauce, and so forth, as that gets bodies in, and who knows, one may find another star flavor.



  • @fbs7
    I am not speaking 'against'. It is a matter of priorities. If our ice maker had the capacity to provide 100 flavours there was no question. Our ice maker tells us however he has the capacity to produce 4 flavours. We will have to make choices.
    Besides that, correct me when I am wrong but AFIK add-ons can be written in C also. The Python interface layer can be pretty thin.



  • @fverbaas

    There we go again trying to change the thread from "Tell me your desires" to "Tell us what should be our priorities".

    I just tell them what my desires are. I don't argue why other customers desires should be ignored.

    If you know how much work Smith Micro can do and you'd like to set their priorities and tell them how many hours their programmers should work and on what, please go ahead. I'm through arguing this.



  • @fbs7 Okay, I know I'm going to be jumped on here, but seriously, I'm tired of hearing you whine and trying to guilt everyone into shutting up so you can get what you want.



  • @fbs7 said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @fverbaas

    There we go again trying to change the thread from "Tell me your desires" to "Tell us what should be our priorities".

    The question I answered was:
    If the team were to spend time implementing this specific thing, would it be worth it as a trade off for another needed feature or Wishlist item?

    Let us keep it at that.



  • @eclark1849 said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @fbs7 Okay, I know I'm going to be jumped on here, but seriously, I'm tired of hearing you whine and trying to guilt everyone into shutting up so you can get what you want.

    Wow, that's a very mean post, specially since I didnt reply to any of your posts; I replied to Ladonna in favor of instancing; my argument with fverbaas was that he's saying that if metaballs get in then something gets out, and I'm saying we don't know about that, as we don't manage SM.

    I don't understand what you're talking about whining. Maybe you refer that I said this discussion is derailing and got me depressed, for the reason that instead of defending their own desires some people insist in arguing against other people's desires as if they were exclusive. They aren't. I say: "I wish you can have the best chocolate ice cream in the world, nothing wrong about that, I still want my pistachio".



  • @fbs7 said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @eclark1849 said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    ... my argument with fverbaas was that he's saying that if metaballs get in then something gets out, and I'm saying we don't know about that, as we don't manage SM.

    Please scratch that (I wish there was an Edit function here); fverbaas said "let us keep it at that", and I intend so.



  • @fverbaas said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    The question I answered was:
    If the team were to spend time implementing this specific thing, would it be worth it as a trade off for another needed feature or Wishlist item?

    And I think that's just what many people here misunderstood:

    This thread isn't about another endless list of what etherical features "could" be built into Poser. We had them by the hundreds already, and they went from ten to thousand and ended up nowhere because they were too individual and (mostly, sorry) too eclectic.

    This thread is about prioritizing what's most practical and can be used by the majority of users who never heard of (or cared for) many of the other eclectic features ever.

    They just want to produce a nice render after the end of the day with minimum fuss...

    Keep this in mind please - the majority of Poser users aren't us forum members, but the silent majority out there who don't even know about this place!

    Don't overestimate our "self- alleged" importance:
    We are just a few freaks compared to the vast majority of Poser Noobs out there.

    But that "silent majority" is the folks who still buy Poser instead of going DAZ|Studio, and they should be provided with the best and easy tools to make Poser superiour to the competition.

    And ASAP please!

    Karina



  • I'm going to throw this out there.
    Meta rigging...

    Yes, you heard me, meta balls can also be used in various types of rigging as well.
    And that can be using it, with, or without bones.
    Basically muscle systems.
    But why would we want the figures to bend better, you know, like a real person does?
    What was I thinking? lol...

    Food for thought...

    On another note, stop attacking each other.
    If you want to troll, attack, etc; find another bridge...


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    @shvrdavid That's an intriguing idea; I can see how metablobs could be used to simulate muscle mass, breasts, etc. I don't enough to define how the meta-muscles would deform the skin mesh, but I can imagine a shrinkwrap of the skin over the meta-muscles. Hmmm...

    @h.elwood.gilliland said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    Is Cycles != Blender?

    Cycles is the render engine; Blender is the 3D studio. You would model, set up materials, work out motion sequences in Blender; you would render in Cycles. The names frequently occur together because Cycles is the render engine developed for and used by the 3D studio Blender.

    It's like the distinction between Firefly and Poser; Firefly is the render engine associated with the 3D studio Poser.



  • @seachnasaigh said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @shvrdavid That's an intriguing idea; I can see how metablobs could be used to simulate muscle mass, breasts, etc. I don't enough to define how the meta-muscles would deform the skin mesh, but I can imagine a shrinkwrap of the skin over the meta-muscles. Hmmm...

    That is what I referred to in the post above, figure technology based on a dynamic skin/clothing mesh (for the texture) with the vertices floating on a force field of blobs held together by the mesh membrane stresses and sublect to inertia forces, gravity, collisions, and constraints by volume and ligament connections to inside structure.
    But hey that is a totally different subject and scope. Let us stay to topic.



  • Replying to the opening post:
    I can do all that fluid sim particles blah blah with Blender. Uhmmmm, so why do I need to use Poser ? Because it is optimised for human figure creation and posing. Yeah, sure, other software do it as well. But. Price-performance matrix, plus, I don't need to pilot an intersteller spacecraft when all I want is to get from point A to Point B in my town. Nice to have, but not an absolute must. As a Shade 3D user, I already get metaballs as well. I think there may be something about production workflow which may not neccessarily mean Poser needs to have metaball capability - but hey, I am just a lowly user. Drag me along with your next upgrade. Whatever.



  • @h.elwood.gilliland said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    So, Metaballs, or something else (maybe several something elses) for the next Poser release. Help me decide. Tell me why we should sacrifice development time for this one thing.

    I don't care one bit about metaballs. People got excited about script-generated geometry and physics waaay back when, due to a now orphaned script. (Python generation and manipulation of objects has been around forever, but I guess it was the "physicality" of the metaball script that people were so excited about.)

    If you waste more time on metaballs than it takes you to read over this thread, you've wasted too much. Dock your pay, go sit in a corner and think about what you've done! :)

    I want the frightening, dank, closet that is Poser's Hair Room expunged. I want it replaced with a hair generation and simulation tool that is worthy of a contemporary application that specializes in high-end-hobbyist grade rendering with both simulated and PBR renderers.

    RE: If a Poser Figure's hair scares you because it looks like someone electrocuted a surprised wombat and glued it onto someone's head, it was definitely made using the Poser Hair Room.

    I would like a particle/emitter system that is powerful, yet easy to use. I think such a system would act to reset the current standard, giving Poser a definite, user-friendly and highly accessible, edge.

    I would like the Poser dev-team to examine how it currently allows implementation of third-party presets, where it does, and to examine how it can expand this to where it doesn't. That means making it easy for users to develop, apply and share presets, in order to take advantage of more "under-the-hood" Power, but power that is accessible without Python knowledge. ie: The easy ability to import and export presets for all of Poser's "rooms." The goal is to try to provide an easy-to-use platform so Poser users can easily generate and share their favorite tweaks and one that does not, necessarily, require a python script, which is ever in danger of being orphaned. ie: Cloth, hair (WHEN a new app is created; Do nothing to emphasize use of the current one!), rendering, etc.. (I know this is somewhat confusing, given Poser's native file exchange system, but just take away that the focus is to allow Poser users, themselves, to generate and redistribute even more "content.")

    Poser Physics - Never used it. I'm sure it's awesome, but it's a bit arcane and I haven't sat down to try to use it. I don't use Poser for animation, so... BUT, I can see it's powerful. So, work on adding the functionality and ease of use that Poser's other, more mainline, features have. Allow for Physics simulations, or scenes with them, to be easily imported/exported. (I have no idea if that can be done, now, and if it can... Well, who's fault is it that I don't know that? :) ) See if you can work in some sort of preset/file/data system that lets certain properties in a physics scene to be redistributed. ie: Physical properties of an object can be set by a "pose" or a separate injection/file-type. (Don't use it, so this part of post probably doesn't make sense. Just know I want more opportunities, as many as possible, for users to help easily generate, use, and redistribute content and freebies, to boost the content footprint, overall, of Poser, for its own good. Do that wherever you can.}

    Firefly - I know it's not PBR, but can something more be done with improving the control over lighting? Lumens? Some controls appear to do nothing at all. Start/end light controls do... nothing? I love the idea of more accurate lighting models, but that's where "sense" seems to stop with lighting controls. (I could just be an idiot, which many have claimed in the past, no matter my own protestations... :) )

    Superfly - Desperately need a more ease-of-access way to use Superfly. That may be due to a lack of redistributed, freebie, lighting/rendering presents and the obvious need for user fine-tuning, since everyone's render is different. But, anything that makes it "easier to learn" how to tweak appropriately will make it easier to use and easier to achieve satisfactory results. Tute's won't do it - It needs hands-on experience to learn and it takes a long time to work through those renders, so more support for presets, there, or more available, would be very nice for an "Intro to Superfly."

    Rendering: Incorporate a hardware detection system that will give the user some feedback on what the recommended rendering settings for their system should be. (Buckets/etc) Poser's native, "lite", rendering preset tool.. Well, I haven't used it since waay back when, preferring more control, since its setting choices were just "bad." Perhaps incorporating something into that, that yields better results, would be the way to go.

    Snarly's EZSkin script is outstanding and I'd hate to use Poser without. Consider it or something similar for the future in terms of ease-of-use for common material tweaking, like human skin SSS.

    D3D's Rendering script it awesome.

    Snarly's Scenefixer is something I will never do without... unless you make me. Just the few simple functions it incorporates make user's lives much, much, easier, saving a lot of time for tedious tasks. It makes using Poser a better experience and that's something that any dev's ears should perk up to. :) (It needs... even more features, too. :) )

    PS - Thanks for reaching out to the community!