Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:)



  • @h.elwood.gilliland said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @Deecey And if you crop your image to a square first?

    Not always a solution, there are times you want to have your background image non-square (for example, rendering to video, or doing promotional renders for content promotion). I would suspect the same happens with background video as well. I will dig into it a bit.



  • @bagginsbill Hmm... Meta balls or fluid sims... Let me think...



  • Blimey!
    You folks are replying faster than i can type my posts...

    I've made my point and derailed the thread already (sorry!)
    So I'll bow out now.

    Cheers!
    Karina


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    Well I agree a true fluid simulation is superior to metaballs. But I didn't really think the Poser team would even tackle such a thing.

    As has been stated more than once, metaballs are cheap. They are computationally simple both to program and to execute.

    Fluid sims - oh my. If the new team is that good, well, yeah do that instead.

    Metaballs is to fluid simulation as ambient occlusion is to full global illumination. It's a cheap hack that ordinary humans with ordinary computers and ordinary budgets can afford.



  • @h.elwood.gilliland said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    And if you crop your image to a square first?

    Oh sure. Now that I'm trying to test it, I can't reproduce it. So now I have to figure out what triggers it.

    Isn't that always the way? LOL



  • @bagginsbill I wasn't arguing against metaballs, but experience has taught me that once Poser adds a feature, it takes an act of Congress to get rid of it. So maybe never. :D



  • @h-elwood-gilliland
    OK my 5 cents in this:
    I would say let Poser do and become better in what Poser is known for and good at. There is no need for a diluted Blender but there is need for a better Poser.
    Of course it would be fun to have in Poser a method to create 'geometry' without the mess of meshes, Isosurfaces were my favorite toy in PovRay, and those combined with the power of the Material room would be awesome, but there are other and IMHO higher priorities. Unless the meta- or iso- object technology is a prelude to awesome figure technology with an elastic skin mesh 'floating' in a force field of muscle actions, and volume constraints, I would say concentrate on aspects that Poser's core business can benefit from:

    • making Poser rock-stable
    • dynamic clothing (Liaise with Marvelous Designer)
    • figure no longer separate objects and cut mesh but single mesh; .
    • dynamic hair
    • support content Xchange beween figures
    • add DAZ formats, unless encrypted, as import and export formats.


  • @F_Verbaas said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @h-elwood-gilliland
    OK my 5 cents in this:
    I would say let Poser do and become better in what Poser is known for and good at. There is no need for a diluted Blender but there is need for a better Poser.
    Of course it would be fun to have in Poser a method to create 'geometry' without the mess of meshes, Isosurfaces were my favorite toy in PovRay, and those combined with the power of the Material room would be awesome, but there are other and IMHO higher priorities. Unless the meta- or iso- object technology is a prelude to awesome figure technology with an elastic skin mesh 'floating' in a force field of muscle actions, and volume constraints, I would say concentrate on aspects that Poser's core business can benefit from:

    • making Poser rock-stable
    • dynamic clothing (Liaise with Marvelous Designer)
    • figure no longer separate objects and cut mesh but single mesh; .
    • dynamic hair
    • support content Xchange beween figures
    • add DAZ formats, unless encrypted, as import and export formats.

    These would definitely be high on my list as well. Your third would be my #1. ;-)



  • @F_Verbaas Actually, I wouldn't mind having something like a "BlenderFusion" for Poser where we can make and run sims in Blender then port them over to Poser for rendering or animation.



  • @F_Verbaas said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @h-elwood-gilliland
    OK my 5 cents in this:
    I would say let Poser do and become better in what Poser is known for and good at. There is no need for a diluted Blender but there is need for a better Poser.
    Of course it would be fun to have in Poser a method to create 'geometry' without the mess of meshes, Isosurfaces were my favorite toy in PovRay, and those combined with the power of the Material room would be awesome, but there are other and IMHO higher priorities. Unless the meta- or iso- object technology is a prelude to awesome figure technology with an elastic skin mesh 'floating' in a force field of muscle actions, and volume constraints, I would say concentrate on aspects that Poser's core business can benefit from:

    • making Poser rock-stable
    • dynamic clothing (Liaise with Marvelous Designer)
    • figure no longer separate objects and cut mesh but single mesh; .
    • dynamic hair
    • support content Xchange beween figures
    • add DAZ formats, unless encrypted, as import and export formats.

    Hey, what makes a Ferrari is a lot of things above a wrench, but if you need to replace a tire in the Ferrari then the wrench gets pretty important.

    Metaball is just a humble inexpensive wrench. It's part of the minimum tools a Ferrari needs to have.

    It's not like we need to choose between the engine or the wrench, because one costs $100K and the other costs $10. So the argument that if they add some simple implementation of metaballs, then that will preclude I dunno Cycles Mk III... that I don't believe. Make it simple; avoid fancy stuff.

    Heck, someone had written the thing in Python 15 years ago and it worked wondefully; then someone else also made another attempt at Python some 2-3 years, but for some reason didnt monetize it (something about holes showing in the metaballs).


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    @h-elwood-gilliland : I submitted the metablobs request with the glass horsey.0_1504901770060_rolleyes.gif It was a demo of what a non-modeling Poser user could quickly put together. But building props (and figures - the blobs will move smoothly - think Sta-Puft marshmallow man) is only a secondary consideration.

    @bagginsbill has already well made my argument of priority, which is that metablobs provide a fluid/vapor simulator with these advantages:

    • relatively easy to code

    • metablobs fuse smoothly into a single mass; you don't see sharp joints or interior surfaces (see glass horse), as is the case with particle spheres.

    • metablobs are considerably lighter on system resources than a more rigorous fluid simulator. Serious fluid dynamics involves differential calculus and nonlinear/abstract algebra.

    I would see metablobs and particles as complementary, rather than binary alternatives. That is, I would like Poser to have both; each does some tasks better than the other.

    For particles, I would like to be able to import my own OBJ, retaining multiple material zones and UV mapping. A limitation of Particles 3 is that it only allows for one material zone, and only procedural shaders.
    For particles, we would need a life node, so that fire can begin as bright yellow, dim to red, then fade to black/transparent.



  • @fbs7
    ... which basically shows again the Metaballs are something that can be done as a 3rd party development outside Poser, and the Poser team can focus on their core business.
    If the Metaballs add-on reveals bugs in Poser: these should be addressed like any other bug encountered.

    @eclark1849
    I was about making a follow-up about some backdoor entry from Blender to take advantage of what Blender is good at. LOL!
    I am with you there.

    @Deecey
    I had no particular order in mind, but it seems we are largely on the same line here.


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    I'd like to stress that the glass horse is not the end goal. The only reason I used the horse (with a volumteric glass shader) was to display some capabilities of metablobs which would go unseen if I had used flickering flames or swirling vapor. For flames, I would soften the exterior surface with an edge_blend to avoid the appearance of a sharply defined boundary surface. Likewise for smoke/steam.

    I submitted the request for metablobs because I thought it could give a goodly amount of benefit (fluid/vapor/flame simulator) at a relatively modest cost in developer man-hours. If I'm wrong about the benefit/cost balance, then by all means, disregard my request.

    Metablobs isn't my greatest feature wish; that would be networked rendering - distributing buckets/samples across a network to speed a single complex/large render.



  • @F_Verbaas said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @fbs7
    ... which basically shows again the Metaballs are something that can be done as a 3rd party development outside Poser, and the Poser team can focus on their core business.
    If the Metaballs add-on reveals bugs in Poser: these should be addressed like any other bug encountered.

    The difference between implementing inside Poser and in Python is that inside Poser that's compiled code while Python is interpreted, so C is about 3 orders of magnitude (or 1,000 times) faster than Python.

    The point of saying that someone could do that in Python was to mean the thing is feasible even on from the outside of the API. It's not to advocate it should be done in python.

    I don't get it; people just have a mindset against feature "X" (add "X" here), as if the program was ruined if these were added. Don't want "X", just don't use it.

    I never argued against anything any other person has proposed, it baffles me that people feel the need to do exactly that.



  • If blobs or some kind of particle system could be used to create atmospherics: rain, snow, dust particles, then an extra room, the "Enviromental" room for ex., might be worth considering. Most Poser renders are photo realistic and as of now, without post work they look environmentally "empty".



  • By the way, this entire discussion about metaballs and metablobs is making me depressed.

    New software versions, specially those I pay $600 for, are like chocolate boxes: you never know what you'll get, but you know it will be delicious. Yet in this it feels like we're the passengers in the Titanic, fighting for a place in the lifeboat, and people seem to think that if someone gets in the lifeboat then they will be left out.

    Having been through enough of that in successive downsizings in the corporate world, I don't really care for the same in a hobby. I therefore don't care in seeing this thread transformed from "tell us your desires" into "tell us which flavors should we have in an ice cream shop that has exactly 5 flavors". That leads to a fight over the 5 flavors.

    Also, an ice cream shop with 5 excellent flavors will always be outsold by a competitor that has 100 flavors, even if those are rather mediocre, because people are always looking for something different. Even if 90% of the sales are for vanilla and chocolate, the other 98 flavors get people in.

    Then I look a DAZ and notice they have meta-pistachio-balls; I don't have even a single way to get my pistachio in Poser, so I'm bummed. I don't care how many people like or dislike pistachio; I like it and DAZ has it and I wouldn't have to fight for it there, so they have my desire.

    I see DAZ working hard to create a set of appeals that are not in Poser; that's probably on purpose, I suppose; that way they manage to create desire in me (and others), even if I completely hate the horrible animation procedure that DAZ has (or had, per the last time I checked). I think that similarly they manage to create a desire in other people that are much less vocal than me.

    And that's my final argument to have no only metaballs but also a whole set of other small tools, even if they are simple and modest and don't sell well, the reason being that when competition has them and you don't, you are at a disadvantage. So improve your best-selling chocolate and vanilla, but at the same time give the clients the pistachio, the zuchini, the pepper, the carrot, the soy sauce, and so forth, as that gets bodies in, and who knows, one may find another star flavor.



  • @fbs7
    I am not speaking 'against'. It is a matter of priorities. If our ice maker had the capacity to provide 100 flavours there was no question. Our ice maker tells us however he has the capacity to produce 4 flavours. We will have to make choices.
    Besides that, correct me when I am wrong but AFIK add-ons can be written in C also. The Python interface layer can be pretty thin.



  • @fverbaas

    There we go again trying to change the thread from "Tell me your desires" to "Tell us what should be our priorities".

    I just tell them what my desires are. I don't argue why other customers desires should be ignored.

    If you know how much work Smith Micro can do and you'd like to set their priorities and tell them how many hours their programmers should work and on what, please go ahead. I'm through arguing this.



  • @fbs7 Okay, I know I'm going to be jumped on here, but seriously, I'm tired of hearing you whine and trying to guilt everyone into shutting up so you can get what you want.



  • @fbs7 said in Tell me your desires: Blobs, particles, fluids, flames (but not flame wars:):

    @fverbaas

    There we go again trying to change the thread from "Tell me your desires" to "Tell us what should be our priorities".

    The question I answered was:
    If the team were to spend time implementing this specific thing, would it be worth it as a trade off for another needed feature or Wishlist item?

    Let us keep it at that.