Iconic characters for Poser?



  • Consider this: the number of people that like 3D rendering, 3D animation, 3D sculpting and is willing to dig into that for the pleasure of doing it is pretty small compared to the population at large.

    But, the number of people that love famous characters is huge. I'd say perhaps 30% of the population as a whole love some character or another.

    So, maybe SM should look into licensing packages of characters that are already established? Say famous anime characters, like the cast of Sailor Moon, or Pokemon, or Fairy Tail, or Sword Art Online, or the Marvel characters, of the Disney characters.

    You see, some of these franchises are stale and will not have new developments, and some may already built and textured 3D meshes for their characters, just waiting for some rigging and basic morphing. So maybe the cost may not be that excessive.

    Then just add some little encryption in the mesh files so that they cannot be pirated around, and voila, maybe that will attract many people that are not particularly enthusiastic about 3D rendering or animation per se, but would love to render or animate the characters they already love.



  • @fbs7 right now I can download celeb lookalikes or clothing/armor packs for free or up to $10-$15 and the vendor does not have to pay a royalty fee or invent some elaborate copy protection scheme. Sounds like a whole-lotta wheel spinning to me.


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    @fbs7

    Before your next breath;
    Snow White has exposed Double FF boobs, and an army of lawsuits land in your neck. You don't wanna mess with those guys.



  • @ghostship said in Iconic characters for Poser?:

    @fbs7 right now I can download celeb lookalikes or clothing/armor packs for free or up to $10-$15 and the vendor does not have to pay a royalty fee or invent some elaborate copy protection scheme. Sounds like a whole-lotta wheel spinning to me.

    You understand SM can sell a figure that looks like Spider Man and has the name of Spider Man without a license fee?



  • @vilters said in Iconic characters for Poser?:

    @fbs7

    Before your next breath;
    Snow White has exposed Double FF boobs, and an army of lawsuits land in your neck. You don't wanna mess with those guys.

    I was kinda thinking of Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse. I suspect Disney is too puritan to let female princesses be manipulated in Poser. On the other hand, Japanese anime heroines are almost always sexy, and many series already have them in bare minimum clothing (or no clothing) in some (or several) scenes.

    I understand, from watching NHK channel, that there are some very kinky dolls in Japan in regular children toy stores...



  • @fbs7 said in Iconic characters for Poser?:

    @ghostship said in Iconic characters for Poser?:

    @fbs7 right now I can download celeb lookalikes or clothing/armor packs for free or up to $10-$15 and the vendor does not have to pay a royalty fee or invent some elaborate copy protection scheme. Sounds like a whole-lotta wheel spinning to me.

    You understand SM can sell a figure that looks like Spider Man and has the name of Spider Man without a license fee?

    LOL Yes they sure can. They'd also get a cease and desist letter from Marvel and then not make one dime on their modeling effort. Again, spinning the wheels and getting nowhere. LOL



  • This is some nice outside the box thinking, and nice to see.

    I have to agree that I doubt it would be fruitful to contact some of the agencies, but I love that folks are thinking new, different approaches!



  • @ghostship said in Iconic characters for Poser?:

    @fbs7 said in Iconic characters for Poser?:

    @ghostship said in Iconic characters for Poser?:

    @fbs7 right now I can download celeb lookalikes or clothing/armor packs for free or up to $10-$15 and the vendor does not have to pay a royalty fee or invent some elaborate copy protection scheme. Sounds like a whole-lotta wheel spinning to me.

    You understand SM can sell a figure that looks like Spider Man and has the name of Spider Man without a license fee?

    LOL Yes they sure can. They'd also get a cease and desist letter from Marvel and then not make one dime on their modeling effort. Again, spinning the wheels and getting nowhere. LOL

    I'm not sure what you mean. Licensing is a pretty common thing. Blender is too complicated for common folks to use; DAZ will never license anything because they make money out of selling their own content; the other competitors are way far out in price range, and as far as I know none of the major companies are in the virtual doll business.

    Poser has a unique advantage of being very easy to use, and is already developed. I just checked, and a Cowboy Bebop doll at Walmart is in the $10 range (a Sailor Moon for $50, holy moonies); that probably means a $1-$2 license fee per unit sold. So how is it impossible to sell a digital Cowboy Bebop for the same $10, and pay $2 in license fee per unit sold?



  • @fbs7 said in Iconic characters for Poser?:

    So how is it impossible to sell a digital Cowboy Bebop for the same $10, and pay $2 in license fee per unit sold?

    I'm guessing the idea that a toy is a final product and a 3d model a element used in the creation of new story or art content could be an important difference. To be sure, I've seen people tell stories with posed action figures, but that's probably such a niche use compared to the basic 'playing with toys' market that it's not seen as relevant.

    Either way, it's an interesting suggestion. There is quite a bit of this general idea on display in both Garry's Mod and XNALara - the difference obviously being that these two programs tend to use content ripped from games that is distributed in probably-less-than-legal fashion. But both have a relatively low barrier to entry and quite popular.

    This topic was also briefly brought up in the thread about making a list of Poser vendors. One site that was mentioned sells these 'iconic characters' or V4 clothing items from popular games like Mass Effect, Star Wars, Overwatch, and Batman. But the likeness to these originals is such that I have my doubts about how much is an original recreation and how much is directly ripped - but given that they've been around for a while they may indeed have mastered the art of imitation, I can't say for sure.



  • @adosity said in Iconic characters for Poser?:

    @fbs7 said in Iconic characters for Poser?:

    So how is it impossible to sell a digital Cowboy Bebop for the same $10, and pay $2 in license fee per unit sold?

    I'm guessing the idea that a toy is a final product and a 3d model a element used in the creation of new story or art content could be an important difference. To be sure, I've seen people tell stories with posed action figures, but that's probably such a niche use compared to the basic 'playing with toys' market that it's not seen as relevant.

    Either way, it's an interesting suggestion. There is quite a bit of this general idea on display in both Garry's Mod and XNALara - the difference obviously being that these two programs tend to use content ripped from games that is distributed in probably-less-than-legal fashion. But both have a relatively low barrier to entry and quite popular.

    This topic was also briefly brought up in the thread about making a list of Poser vendors. One site that was mentioned sells these 'iconic characters' or V4 clothing items from popular games like Mass Effect, Star Wars, Overwatch, and Batman. But the likeness to these originals is such that I have my doubts about how much is an original recreation and how much is directly ripped - but given that they've been around for a while they may indeed have mastered the art of imitation, I can't say for sure.

    I think the major difficulty with this whole idea is not on licensing, but on platform.

    The PC and Macintosh are a declining media. All teens and young adults seem to prefer tables instead -- to my astonishment, as I can't seem to be able to do anything with these little infernal machines.

    So I suspect that someone that could make a lot of money is by licensing characters from say Marvel or Disney, provide them rigged, clothed, accessorized and already in an environment, and then having a simpler application that allows them to pose and animate in some few commands. Don't need to have 500 morphs in them to say increase chest size, just need some basic expressions, but would be very helpful to have some common movements automated, like keep balance and walk by itself.

    That I suspect is the money thing. As far as Poser, I suspect that will indeed remain a niche thing, specially due to the platform.


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    @fbs7 While I like the idea in theory, the cost of licensing characters from Marvel or Disney would be so astronomical they'd never make their money back from selling the characters.

    That and you have to consider what the characters would be used for - most likely fan fiction, which many companies do not condone. Disney once sent a cease and desist notice to a daycare that dared to paint disney characters on their walls without permission. They also now own the star wars franchise and many aspects of marvel.



  • @AmbientShade said in Iconic characters for Poser?:

    @fbs7 While I like the idea in theory, the cost of licensing characters from Marvel or Disney would be so astronomical they'd never make their money back from selling the characters.

    That and you have to consider what the characters would be used for - most likely fan fiction, which many companies do not condone. Disney once sent a cease and desist notice to a daycare that dared to paint disney characters on their walls without permission. They also now own the star wars franchise and many aspects of marvel.

    How about Japanese studios? I hear many of the series are developed really on the cheap, like $100K per episode, so make it $2M for a year's run. And many of these are dead-ends, and will have no more development, so any more $$ should be bonus for them.



  • @fbs7 said in Iconic characters for Poser?:

    You see, some of these franchises are stale and will not have new developments, and some may already built and textured 3D meshes for their characters, just waiting for some rigging and basic morphing. So maybe the cost may not be that excessive.

    Uh... No.

    First of all, forget about "cost." These IP's make money because people want to ride the coattails of their success. MONEY is why they exist. They are not "creative endeavors to enrich the artistic lives of their consumers by providing quality entertainment value."

    $$$$

    However, does Disney want to make ANY amount of bajillions of dollars, USD, by licensing Mickey Mouse, its most iconic icon, to a dildo manufacturer?

    See the problem?

    It's not just about about money, it's about brand image and what uses that IP will be put towards which ultimate effects its longterm value to the original IP holder.

    Sailor Moon will be licensed to be used for lunchboxes. Yes, that will happen. The IP will also be licensed for use for children's clothing, books, snack treats and other wholesome things that the IP holder thinks not only makes them money, but serves the continued value of their brand.

    Sailor Moon, the IP, will never, ever, ever, be officially licensed for a 3D computer application that involves an open, unlicensed, unstewarded, field of users that will, without a doubt and with a non-zero probability, pair her up with a sexually aroused rhinoceros and publish that render on DeviantArt for the world to see.

    What IP has officially been licensed for use in Poser content? Which one? Wanna know? A PORNSTAR.

    There ya go, there's the sort of "officially licensed product" that this particularly market can't drive into the ground. :)

    TLDR - An IP holder will seek to maintain the value of their IP by restricting the ways in which it can be used, or abused, by others. That includes those that it officially licenses and they do that by limiting the uses of their IP within the boundaries of that granted license. That is not possible with Poser or its content, so any IP holder would have to willingly give up control of their IP to whatever uses the program enables its users to use it for and no businessperson is dumb enough to do that, at least not those with successful and desirable intellectual property they've worked long and hard to increase in value.


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    @morkonan lol, yep.

    Just imagine what mickey mouse and spidey would be doing with/to sailor moon in them deviant art renders. Hell, you don't even need poser licensing to find similar "fan made" content already. Just do a google search with your adult filters turned off. Every cartoon character you've ever thought of can already be found doing every manner of unspeakables with each other via fan art, just a few mouse clicks away.

    Besides, for a fraction of what it would cost SM to license any of those IPs they could hire a competent modeler to provide Poser with quality human figures. and yet.... ...crickets...



  • @morkonan said in Iconic characters for Poser?:

    Sailor Moon, the IP, will never, ever, ever, be officially licensed for a 3D computer application that involves an open, unlicensed, unstewarded, field of users that will, without a doubt and with a non-zero probability, pair her up with a sexually aroused rhinoceros and publish that render on DeviantArt for the world to see.

    Kinda late for that kind of worry. I was once randomly browsing something (dont remember what, might have been penguins) at Google Images, and I was taken to a link of an image of a nude beach party at DeviantArt. I thought, wow, this drawing is really well made... but these girls look familiar... is that Sailor Moon and her friends?

    I couldn't live without that answer, and as it had no caption I had to examine all the details of the image very carefully, and then compare with the Sailor Moon characters one by one. All in name of science, of course. And all while my mom was away, of course. And then after a long time of detailed examination, I categorically concluded it was indeed Sailor Moon. And of course I saved the image in my secret folder, so that if another drawing comes from a different.... err... angle, I can reuse my previous research.

    Joking apart, I see your point, but that also happens with a lot of things that are already licensed. One can take a dress-up Cinderella doll, undress it, make a sexy scene out of it with Larry (or whatever is the name of Barbie's boyfriend), take a picture with their camera and post it in DeviantArt, all that with much less work than having to go through Poser. In today's world, there's no way to protect any IP from that, and that will not get any easier.


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    @fbs7 Yes. And in fact there's a handful (at least) artists out there who have made huge $$$ doing exactly that via fan art. Some of them have even managed to be offered jobs working for the people who's characters they were fan-arting. Its even encouraged, in some aspects, to demonstrate your skills as an artist both 2D and 3D - just look through any of the big 5 cg galleries and you'll find scads and scads of it, all of it done essentially to promote the talents of the artist that did it. The IP holders tend to frown on it, but there's so much of it they'd spend more time and resources trying to have it all taken down than it is worth chasing, kind of like scooping water out of a sinking boat with a dixie cup. And technically its free advertising for the IP holder so most tend to just look the other way, as long as they know you aren't making anything off of it.

    But while it's futile for companies to try to chase down all the fan art, it is also of no benefit to them to make it easier for people to create it, much less do naughty things with it. And anyone out there making fan art, no matter how innocent, could wake up one day to a cease and desist notice from the IP holder. Failure to comply means a lawsuit that you won't win and nobody wants to upset a beast like Disney by not complying with their demands.

    As for the cheaply produced, no-name Japanese titles, if they aren't worth the IP holder to continue producing then they likely are not worth anyone buying a license to merchandise anything from. Licensing a product also requires a certain projected amount of return on investment. So if its a character that no one in N. America or Europe have ever heard of, or at least not enough of them have heard of it and liked it enough to keep asking for more, then why bother with it? Might as well just save the money and produce your own better characters.



  • @fbs7 Barbies's boyfriend was Ken. Larry was Ken's uncouth, horndog friend.



  • @ghostship That would be Leisure Suit Larry, right? :)



  • @kalypso LOL



  • @AmbientShade said in Iconic characters for Poser?:

    Besides, for a fraction of what it would cost SM to license any of those IPs they could hire a competent modeler to provide Poser with quality human figures. and yet.... ...crickets...

    /sigh
    You're absolutely right. SM doesn't need an outside IP, at least not in this sense. (Third-party, proprietary applications, may be an exception, but that's about increased functionality and product quality, not dress-up-doll-content. :) )

    Sub-D doesn't fix "ugly." :)

    @fbs7 said in Iconic characters for Poser?:

    @morkonan said in Iconic characters for Poser?:

    ...In today's world, there's no way to protect any IP from that, and that will not get any easier.

    You can absolutely, with a certainty, act to protect an intellectual property, usually with extreme civil consequences. There are legions of lawyers devoted to this one, single, practice of protecting intellectual property rights.

    However, it is also possible to skirt the edges of IP law, especially when no money is involved or artistic license permits the use of commonplace intellectual properties.

    I'm aware of the figures you discussed, I think, or at least those like them. There is a limit to what creators can do, but that depends on whether or not an IP wishes to acknowledge an infringement. I say "acknowledge" it - An IP-holder must act to defend their IP when they know of an infringement. Failing to do so weakens their case, in some cases, if this can be shown to be a historically common practice of theirs. So, rabid defense of intellectual property is the order of the day, but only when they choose to "see it." You will never find a smart IP holder acknowledging an illicit use of their IP without following it up with some form of "protecting it." (Cease and desist letter, warning, contacting third-party host, etc.)

    However, things that "look like" a trademarked image are difficult to act against, especially if the creator has taken steps to make the likeness "unique."

    A Star Wars "Tie Fighter" that looks exactly like one from the movies and labeled and sold as such will result in Disney suing the crap out of someone so they can buy lunch for the 3000 lawyers who participate...

    A Star Wars-looking "Tie Fighter" that doesn't share the exact same color scheme, is labeled as a "spaceship", has been altered so that it has some significant deviations from the movie model, and doesn't share a similar context (Doesn't belong to "The Empire" during a "Rebellion", etc) is much less-likely to raise the ire of Disney if it is being sold. (Don't quote me on that...) BUT, the fact that it is being sold, alone, may be enough to result in a Cease and Desist warning, just for giggles, because Disney loves raising people's bloodpressure on the cheap.

    Lastly, if it's "free", then it's much less likely to draw attention to itself as there are already various precedents regarding "fan art" even though Disney, and some other IP holders, do not claim to "recognize" such a legal category. This is where the majority of what may otherwise be considered by some as IP Infringements exist. Truth-be-told, legitimate "fan art" rests fairly firmly in the domain of artistic freedom, commentary and the like and, as such, isn't an infringement. HOWEVER, while certain trademarked likenesses may be used in pure art, trademarked symbols may be outside of the realm of "artistic license" simply due to their history of use as indicating an "official product."

    So, a trademarked symbol, no matter what it is, is largely still protected, even in artistic expression, if it isn't altered or if it isn't made obvious, at first glance, that it is not an "official" use of the trademark. That would include such things as extreme as font trademarks, fictional symbols trademarked along with other movie and 2d content (The rebel "phoenix" symbol, for instance, is trademarked and protected.) and the like.

    The above are just guidelines and opinions and do not represent legal counsel. :) Disney can sue anyone for anything remotely resembling anything they claim, or think they can claim, as an exclusive intellectual property. Oh, and so can anyone else, anywhere else. Being successful, though, is another matter, but nobody likes the process.