Is Poser a toy, a hobby, or a professional tool?



  • There's a pencil on my desk.

    Is it a tool for hobbyists or professionals?

    Well, I can make money with it, so I guess it's for professionals. But, when I'm serious, I use a pen. Still - That pencil, applied correctly, can make good money, too.

    It's also a bit easier just to goof around with a pencil, before I get serious with the pen.



  • @morkonan said in Is Poser a toy, a hobby, or a professional tool?:

    There's a pencil on my desk.

    Is it a tool for hobbyists or professionals?

    Well, I can make money with it, so I guess it's for professionals. But, when I'm serious, I use a pen. Still - That pencil, applied correctly, can make good money, too.

    It's also a bit easier just to goof around with a pencil, before I get serious with the pen.

    It's a bit different when things get more complex and expensive. Maya is clearly a professional tool, due to the expense in time and money needed to do anything in it, due to its widespread utilization as such, and due to the fact that most professionals in CGI recognize that Maya is a very useful skill for anyone that wants to get in the CGI industry.

    I see Poser as a high-end toy for adults, that is a hobby, at best an auxiliary tool for a profession (in the same way that artists can use toy dinosaurs to help their sketching), and I don't see anything wrong with that - many hobbies make a lot of money. But I see in this thread that many people consider Poser is a toy, and/or a hobby, and/or a professional tool -- the last one for the fact that they (or someone else) can make money out of it, even if that's outside mainstream CGI market and acceptance.

    I respect that point of view, but if that point of view is the point of view of the majority of the customers (I have no idea about that), then SM does have an extremely challenging task ahead, as a product needs to improve to survive, and it's hard to make any software a better toy, and a better hobby, and a better professional thingie all at the same time. These are conflicting requirements.



  • Would you call this a toy just because a child is playing with it?

    0_1507709368618_High-Power-Nail-Gun.jpg

    You ain't doing Poser any favors by calling it a toy, even after so many people have proven it's professional worth... but you are our new best friend for discouraging wanna be animators from trying Poser, thus reducing unnecessary competition :]

    ...and your pro-Maya argument based on the expense associated with it, don't hold much water, coz Blender is FREE and can hold it's own on 11 sec. club: 2nd place
    Please keep in mind that if we would have those goofy looking character rigs in Poser, there would be no difference in animation quality between Maya, Blender or Poser. Unless we were to consider speed, where Poser frigin' dominates!



  • Fbs7 thank you!! I had another topic for my blog on my directory site all picked out, but I have to wait for Erogenesis to get back in touch with me. So i need another topic for this week and you've give it to me with this thread. In fact, I'm even going to link back to this thread in my blog.



  • @krios said in Is Poser a toy, a hobby, or a professional tool?:

    Would you call this a toy just because a child is playing with it?

    You ain't doing Poser any favors by calling it a toy, even after so many people have proven it's professional worth... but you are our new best friend for discouraging wanna be animators from trying Poser, thus reducing unnecessary competition :]

    ...and your pro-Maya argument based on the expense associated with it, don't hold much water, coz Blender is FREE and can hold it's own on 11 sec. club: 2nd place
    Please keep in mind that if we would have those goofy looking character rigs in Poser, there would be no difference in animation quality between Maya, Blender or Poser. Unless we were to consider speed, where Poser frigin' dominates!

    Okay, I can accept the point, based on a simple fact. I ran a search at Monster.com for jobs. I found 842 matches with Maya, and although I didn't check the whole 842 list I checked 10, and they indeed are asking for experience with Maya for CGI work.

    I ran the same search for Poser, and I got 9 matches. From those, 8 are false matches (they were asking for something about a "poser plant", I have no idea what that means, but it's not CGI). Then, to my amazement, I did find this job opening:

    Poser Job

    So, if there's a job opening that is saying that experience with Smith Micro Poser Pro is a plus, then by definition one can make a living from using this tool (although they also asked for 3DS Max).

    So I accept the point that although that's a pretty small professional market (like 900 times smaller than Maya), one can indeed have a career by using Poser as a profession.



  • By the way, I tried but couldn't do a similar search for Blender. I kept getting all kinds of jobs related to operating industrial blenders in factories, haha



  • @fbs7 said in Is Poser a toy, a hobby, or a professional tool?:

    By the way, I tried but couldn't do a similar search for Blender. I kept getting all kinds of jobs related to operating industrial blenders in factories, haha

    ... and things like this:

    "Description:
    Must posses knowledge of quantity food production, presentation, service and sanitation. Must understand the use of various kitchen equipment, including steamer, ovens, fryer, grill, steam kettle, meat slicer, blender, mixer, chopper, food processor, knives, convection oven, etc. Must be well organized and well groomed appearance at all times."

    That's for a job at Apple, at all places!


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @fbs7 said in Is Poser a toy, a hobby, or a professional tool?:

    @krios said in Is Poser a toy, a hobby, or a professional tool?:

    Would you call this a toy just because a child is playing with it?

    You ain't doing Poser any favors by calling it a toy, even after so many people have proven it's professional worth... but you are our new best friend for discouraging wanna be animators from trying Poser, thus reducing unnecessary competition :]

    ...and your pro-Maya argument based on the expense associated with it, don't hold much water, coz Blender is FREE and can hold it's own on 11 sec. club: 2nd place
    Please keep in mind that if we would have those goofy looking character rigs in Poser, there would be no difference in animation quality between Maya, Blender or Poser. Unless we were to consider speed, where Poser frigin' dominates!

    Okay, I can accept the point, based on a simple fact. I ran a search at Monster.com for jobs. I found 842 matches with Maya, and although I didn't check the whole 842 list I checked 10, and they indeed are asking for experience with Maya for CGI work.

    I ran the same search for Poser, and I got 9 matches. From those, 8 are false matches (they were asking for something about a "poser plant", I have no idea what that means, but it's not CGI). Then, to my amazement, I did find this job opening:

    Poser Job

    So, if there's a job opening that is saying that experience with Smith Micro Poser Pro is a plus, then by definition one can make a living from using this tool (although they also asked for 3DS Max).

    So I accept the point that although that's a pretty small professional market (like 900 times smaller than Maya), one can indeed have a career by using Poser as a profession.

    That one Poser job you found is actually at a university, seems to be to teach CGI applications that might relate to virtual reality stuff.

    If Poser is used at all in the animation or motion picture industry, it is probably used more in behind the scenes work, as a tool for previsualization, than it is for final rendering. Although, I have spotted Poser animations on television on occasion (tv shows like Bones, The Doctors, and even Jimmy Kimmel live). It's out there, just have to pay attention. 8-)

    (For the Jimmy Kimmel Live bit, do a YouTube search for "Aunt Chippy sonogram")



  • @fbs7 said in Is Poser a toy, a hobby, or a professional tool?:

    I ran the same search for Poser, and I got 9 matches. From those, 8 are false matches (they were asking for something about a "poser plant", I have no idea what that means, but it's not CGI). Then, to my amazement, I did find this job opening:

    Poser Job

    There is a small candle of hope burning at the end of the tunnel.

    Since we brought the nail gun into this conversation, here's another analogy that might appease both sides:
    Think of Maya as an high-powered nail gun. You can shoot a nail through a 2x4 with the press of the trigger. Frame a house in no time, and look cool while doing it. The flip side is that a nail gun requires a compressor, electricity or gas, a long air hose, and a considerable investment ($$$).

    Poser on the other hand is a good old fashion hammer. You can do everything a nail gun can do, a lot cheaper, but a bit slower.
    Sounds about right?

    And on the bright side, if you know how to use a hammer, you'd be comfortable with a gun as well.

    There is a tool for every job. Did you know Archer is animated mostly in After Effects? [source]
    Not exactly an animation tool, being used mostly for video editing and VFX.



  • @fbs7 please, describe clearly, who is a professional and what is the professional tool.

    It is becoming wordplay discussion. I assume, probably incorrectly, that professional tool for you is something that professional would use most part of the work time. And could get a job knowing only this tool. And could be named as a professional for knowing this tool only. And professional is someone who works for "big guys". About right?

    By the way, I found only one Maxwell Render job on this site. 3 Realflow. 5 MARI. Toys, by this measure, definitely toys.



  • For workshop tools the difference between hobby and professional versions is increased durability/robustness/reliability of the latter, which usually comes at a price in terms of money, risk, weight, availability and/or versatility.
    Which is the right choice for anyone depends on their situation. I had a conversation once with an owner of a construction company who provided his workers with 'hobby' electrical tools. The tools were cheap, ready available from the local hardware store, less attractive for theft, and came with a 2- year guarantee so when one broke down he simply returned it to the shop.

    Professionalism is in the choice made, not in the brand chosen.



  • @fverbaas said in Is Poser a toy, a hobby, or a professional tool?:

    For workshop tools the difference between hobby and professional versions is increased durability/robustness/reliability of the latter, which usually comes at a price in terms of money, risk, weight, availability and/or versatility.
    Which is the right choice for anyone depends on their situation. I had a conversation once with an owner of a construction company who provided his workers with 'hobby' electrical tools. The tools were cheap, ready available from the local hardware store, less attractive for theft, and came with a 2- year guarantee so when one broke down he simply returned it to the shop.

    Professionalism is in the choice made, not in the brand chosen.

    That's an interesting point.



  • @phdubrov said in Is Poser a toy, a hobby, or a professional tool?:

    @fbs7 please, describe clearly, who is a professional and what is the professional tool.

    So simple: a professional is someone who makes money with his skills (body builder, prostitute, construction worker...)
    A pro tool, something someone uses to make money (gym weights, didos, hammers) ;]

    As fverbaas pointed out (as well), it's not the tool it's what you use it for.

    And Poser is by no means a stand alone tool, even for hobby animation, you still need a 3D modeler, and a video editing prog. to get an animation out there... or Photoshop for single images. The more tools one knows, the better.



  • hm ... interesting question!
    Since I was a little one I was interested in any form of 3D - and there are plenty.
    I created paper dolls and peep-show-boxes with paper-stand-ups inside.
    Later there were many trials to draw plastically or to create sculptures. Today rendering is the answer to all my failures.
    Simultaneously to the development of my creativity I found, that "3D" subconsciously meant much more to me than creating images: 3-dimensional view is the use of our three eyes and another way to realize our dreams.
    How much professionality do we need to make our dreams visible? What we call reality is a kind of active dreaming, just a bit more conscious than we do at night.
    So I don't care if they call the tools "toy" or "professional". It's a question of how much a dream, an illusion is worth.
    So my aim is not to create the most possible realism and optical quality. The transfer of the message is all what counts.
    Of course I understand the claims of all the professionals and real artists. But as said: in the end it's all illusion. And I like it :-))
    http://millenium-tweens.npage.co.uk/pic-of-the-week.html[link text](link url)



  • @fbs7 said in Is Poser a toy, a hobby, or a professional tool?:

    I respect that point of view, but if that point of view is the point of view of the majority of the customers (I have no idea about that), then SM does have an extremely challenging task ahead, as a product needs to improve to survive, and it's hard to make any software a better toy, and a better hobby, and a better professional thingie all at the same time. These are conflicting requirements.

    It's not really difficult to increase a product's usefulness across a broad spectrum. What's difficult is keeping the costs of such a product within reach of a broad spectrum of users. :)

    I can build a wheelbarrow that will wheelbarrow the bestest ever that a wheelbarrow ever wheelbarrowed... and it can take you to the Moon, too! How much ya wanna pay for that? :)

    In this case, what appeals to the hobbyist? Well, price-point, to be sure, but it seems that hobbyists are comfortable with the current price-points for Poser and the discounts and "sales" they can take advantage of.

    What else? Professional results with hobbyist skills? Yup. :) (The elusive "Do Art" button.)

    Content! More dollies to dress up, more stuffs to do stuffs with. More Vickies naked in a temple with a sword...

    What about the Pros? What do they want? Cartoon rendering seems popular. Network rendering, perhaps? Expanding animation capabilities?

    I think forum-goers could come up with a "list" of desirable additions, but the truly delicate issue is one of price-point. Past a certain price, hobbyists will not be as responsive, especially in a competitive environment. That's why there's different versions of Poser to begin with.

    IMO, there's one huge, looming, issue that effects the entire target market across the full spectrum - Content. Pros can make their own, to a certain extent, but they want the convenience of being able to grab a stable of basic content so they can focus on "creating" end products instead of having to create raw materials.

    So, in this brief rundown, between hobbyists and pros, on the subject of "what is Poser" and, slightly off-topic :) - Content is the most common variable for both markets.

    But, "Content" is not what SM does. I know it's OT for this thread, but that's the critical issue that's coming up soon, IMO, that focuses on both hobbyist and pro users.



  • @morkonan

    But, "Content" is not what SM does. I know it's OT for this thread, but that's the critical issue that's coming up soon, IMO, that focuses on both hobbyist and pro users.

    Content is what "hobbyists "need" to do anything in Poser. The same can't be said for the "Pros". since I started buying Poser Pro my focus has shifted more from a what do I want to "render" frame of thought to a what do I want to "create" frame of reference. Sadly, Pose has become more of "a" tool in my arsenal than the "only tool in my arsenal. I spend far more time with Blender and GIMP now than I do with Poser.



  • @eclark1849 said in Is Poser a toy, a hobby, or a professional tool?:

    @morkonan

    But, "Content" is not what SM does. I know it's OT for this thread, but that's the critical issue that's coming up soon, IMO, that focuses on both hobbyist and pro users.

    Content is what "hobbyists "need" to do anything in Poser. The same can't be said for the "Pros". since I started buying Poser Pro my focus has shifted more from a what do I want to "render" frame of thought to a what do I want to "create" frame of reference. Sadly, Pose has become more of "a" tool in my arsenal than the "only tool in my arsenal. I spend far more time with Blender and GIMP now than I do with Poser.

    I agree.

    But, I'd also say that while hobbyists do depend largely on third-party content, professionals probably don't want to have to make chairs, tables, basic clothing, hair, etc, for everything they render. It's why places like Turbosquid exist. A pro has to decide if their time is best spent making basic, common, junk in their scene or buying it. If they buy it, it doesn't mean they won't modify it, retexture it, morph it, etc. But, they won't have to spend the several hours it took to create the base item. Time = Money.

    But, as a bonus, the important thing about content, other than driving Poser purchases, is that it's an ongoing source of income, depending upon how its sold. It's also "free marketing." Every time something "neat" is shown in a Pose storefront, it's an advertisement for Poser.

    And, if one looks carefully, one can easily see that some other places know this and take certain steps...



  • @morkonan I don't know who's in charge of SM's marketing, but truthfully, I'd consider firing them. That sounds rather mean and harsh, I know, and I don't mean to be, but they're not doing a very good job as far as I can tell. A community full of artists and you can't commission one or two of them to create some eyecatching images to use in promoting Poser? I used to be a DJ for this radio station and we had NO budget at all for promotions. We'd get record companies to donate a few records to use in give aways on the air. and at one point hell, I went out to a drug store and bought some valentine's day candy to giveaway on the air. The point being that you have to keep your brand out there and visible. The revamp of the CP store was a step in the right direction, but frankly it kind of looks like they've stopped already.



  • @eclark1849 said in Is Poser a toy, a hobby, or a professional tool?:

    @morkonan I don't know who's in charge of SM's marketing, but truthfully, I'd consider firing them. That sounds rather mean and harsh, I know, and I don't mean to be, but they're not doing a very good job as far as I can tell. A community full of artists and you can't commission one or two of them to create some eyecatching images to use in promoting Poser? I used to be a DJ for this radio station and we had NO budget at all for promotions. We'd get record companies to donate a few records to use in give aways on the air. and at one point hell, I went out to a drug store and bought some valentine's day candy to giveaway on the air. The point being that you have to keep your brand out there and visible. The revamp of the CP store was a step in the right direction, but frankly it kind of looks like they've stopped already.

    You are absolutely right.

    In fact, I logged off a little while ago and then logged back in to post a thread on this same subject. :)

    I'm a frustrated witness to a lot of talent and work going to waste because someone hasn't ever been "hungry" and hasn't ever been forced to learn how to do "marketing on the cheap." :)

    I do understand, however, that Poser is just one of several bits of properties SM is into. It's a division, not a primary focus. And, to some extent, from a pure business stance, I guess I can understand that. (IF the margins are better in other divisions and they need more attention to stay that way.)

    But, in order to stay in business in any market, one has to stay "hungry." That means that if you can get a taste of something, somewhere, you run after it like the hungriest man on the face of the Earth. And, if you can't pay for a taxi, you take your bicycle and if it has a flat tire, you run, and if you can't run, you walk, and if you can't walk, you hitch-hike, and if your thumb's busted, you lay there on the side of the road and scream your head off until someone notices you...



  • @morkonan said in Is Poser a toy, a hobby, or a professional tool?:

    But, in order to stay in business in any market, one has to stay "hungry." That means that if you can get a taste of something, somewhere, you run after it like the hungriest man on the face of the Earth. And, if you can't pay for a taxi, you take your bicycle and if it has a flat tire, you run, and if you can't run, you walk, and if you can't walk, you hitch-hike, and if your thumb's busted, you lay there on the side of the road and scream your head off until someone notices you...

    Words of wisdom right there morkonan!

    You are right Earl, if SM wants to ramp up awareness for animation, it would have to create a piece like Blender did with Sintel

    Is Blender any better then Poser at animation? Does it respond to your eyes' movement? No and no!
    But with a short animation like Sintel, which can be done with Poser as well, everyone sees Blender as a viable animation tool.

    Maybe it's up to the community to roll up their sleeves and help Poser out a bit... there is this thing called crowd funding, and if only a fraction of the NSFW Poser content funding would be directed to a goody-two-shoes project, the world would see Poser in a different light (hint-hint) :]


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