How would you Promote Poser?


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @AmbientShade Agree, Gnomon was the first which comes in my mind. Lynda is very good also. Udemy, but they get pretty expensive now.
    When the video tuts are well made, they are a great source to learn.
    But to be honest, for Poser does not exist much video tut which you can listen without to have physical pain.
    I had once listen to one, a few years ago, there you did not know if the tutor had asthma , was running before, or maybe had just at this moment some adult fun while making this video.
    He was so heavy breathing , that after 5 minutes I give up.
    There are over you tube some really impressive made tuts out for PS, Substance stuff, Blender. But Poser is missing really on the top list.
    There are some webinars for sure also, but I don't like them.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Best way to show off Poser is to show what can be done. What tools are there, and what options do they offer?

    Here an example;

    This is one of my old freestuff items : "Roxie the Roman" outfit.

    Refitted to Bella in Blender; Merged all vertex groups into one, and removed all double vertex. => Exact, this outfit has only a single vertex group : Hip.
    0_1508414649517_Roman-single-group1.jpg

    Imported as obj file into Poser, and brought it into the fitting room over Bella.
    In the fitting room, you have to select all bones required to serve as ghostbones for the single vertex group obj.
    Examples:

    • The helmet needs the head bone
    • The spear needs the lHand bone
    • The sword needs the rHand bone
    • For the boots, I included up to the r and l Toe bones.

    Next you go to the Pose room and conform, but not a lot is happening at that point. LOL.

    Open the Joint editor, end select the "ghostbone" you want to paint the weight/bulge map for, and each time set "hip" as affected actor and paint the weightmap for each in Twist, Side-Side and Bend.
    Work in a logical order.

    • Hip upwards over waist, abdomen up to the head, and from the hip down to the toes.
    • Then out to one side. => rCollar, over rShoulder, over rForearm, to rHand.
    • You only have to do one side, and use the "Figure => Rig Symmetry => to copy the rig to the other side.

    Even in extreme outfits like these, only the sword and spear needed finetuning.

    This is the unrendered and rigged single vertex group outfit conformed to the figure Bella.
    0_1508415335792_Roman-single-group2.jpg

    What is more : => You have 3 options now.

    • Either create ALL vertex groups.
    • Or create only the "main" vertex groups => Less manual weightmap painting to be done.
    • Or create only a single vertex group.

    This last option is a good one as it PREVENTS Poser from breaking up the obj into individual and unwelded vertex groups when saving out the outfit to library.

    Have a nice day all, and have fun using the Poser tools.
    Tony



  • @vilters Tony are you saying that Poser should get rid of the Setup Room all together and let the Fitting Room be Poser's main figure content Room? I'm not saying yay or nay? I'm just asking you to clarify.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Here a quick and dirty render of the single vertex group outfit.
    All procedurals, nothing fancy, and PhysicalSurface used.

    0_1508417568044_Roman-single-group3.jpg

    @Earl

    The setup room has its advantages if you begin with a bare / new obj from nothing at all.
    ! ! ! ! ! ! !But again, reminder => When exiting the setup room and saving to library, your vertex grouped obj WILL be split into individual and unwelded vertex groups ! ! ! ! !

    (The fitting room does the same thing => Unwelding the vertex groups you feed it! ! ! !

    AFTER a setup or fitting room session, you should ALLWAYS replace the obj file that Poser saved for you with the original welded one. => Keep the cr2, but replace the obj.

    That's why going SINGLE vertex group can be an advantage.

    To create clothing? The fitting room is preferable in my humble opinion.

    I always do the fitting over a figure part in Blender, and only use the fitting room to transfer the bones.
    But that's personal choice.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    One of the best way to promote Poser is to create high quality Content. Free and for sale and use the new Technics.
    Not outdated Poser 5 shadernodes, Deep-mapshadow lights and another old fancy stuff. get the best out of the new Superfly render engine, cycles shader nodes, fitting room and show it.
    Write tutorials .
    Don't be always so negative in the forums . To bash permanently on Poser leads to a self fulfilling prophecy. You just need to repeat it over and over again that Poser is dead and more and more people will leave the ship.



  • I would certainly not!



  • I think they need to promote it with pictures that can be done in just Poser, with included content, rather than postworked stuff. Then they could put the ready to render scenes in the scene library so buyers can immediately get a picture.
    Example, these 2 pics are straight exports, resized and saved for web. Not the greatest (and the pics use content that's not included (Miki 4 plus Biscuit's hair and Kelvin G2 plus clothes but they are Smith Micro figures) which requires extra expense) but are examples of what Poser can do on it's own. These sort of scenes could be included.

    0_1508419576810_miki4_portrait.jpg

    0_1508419684592_KelvinG2_portrait.jpg

    There's nothing worse than getting all excited by some new bit of shiny kit and not being able to get the result (or at least near it) you see on the (virtual) box. Just my opinion.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @raven Outstanding render !!!! Miki looks so gorgeous here.



  • @Ladonna Thanks. I don't play with those figures often but thought 'why not' as I thought about doing a series of portraits and different figures give different looks! :)



  • @raven He looks like an actor I've seen. Just can't think of his name or the show I've seen him on.



  • @raven said in How would you Promote Poser?:

    There's nothing worse than getting all excited by some new bit of shiny kit and not being able to get the result (or at least near it) you see on the (virtual) box. Just my opinion.

    This is something I hope to remedy with simple tuts like this one, but folks also need to understand that Poser is a lot like real life photography, renders can be dull and underexposed, much like a real DSLR camera would do. To get nice vibrant renders, you will have to visit the 'dark room' so to speak, or the modern equivalent: Photoshop, or Gimp. I will provide hints about those too.



  • @Ladonna said in How would you Promote Poser?:

    @Miss-B So me. And when English is not your mother language , with Video Tutorials you are really f*****.
    Some have such an horrible slang, you never understand what they want to teach you. Or when they are speaking fast. Not to understand for people outside of the English language community.

    The same for me when the tutorial creator's mother language wasn't English. I had a two-part video tutorial for a really nice sword in Silo, and I was able to do the first part, the pummel and crossguard, but the second part for the sword's blade was impossible to follow, so I just created my own blade similar to one I had already done successfully from another tutorial.



  • @eclark1849
    Actually, if you add access to the "Add Bone" tool in the Fitting Room, along with access to the associated panels, that might actually be all that is needed. The main issue with the Fitting Room is you can't add additional bones in it.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    The last product I made has a video demonstration with it right on the product page here. The idea was to show how easy it is to get decent results out of Superfly, plus the last few minutes deal specifically with processing renders. I also did it because making illustrated PDF's (which I did with previous products) is very time consuming - & to be blunt the financial return for time & money invested is paltry for the stuff I do.

    Feedback would be useful - no purchase necessary :D



  • There are some really good topics in this thread, sorry for not quoting them in my post - It's hard to pick just a few. :)

    TLDR at the bottom, folks! :)

    But, there is a sort of emergent topic, here.

    Poser is a deceptively powerful program. It has a great deal of technological wizardry going on under the hood. One of its strengths is that it is not "constrained", especially when one considers content and the user's freedom to create it.

    However, if one has a great engine that has a huge amount of horsepower, unless you can build the rest of the car and a nice track to run it on, you won't be easily satisfied. (Unless you like staring at engines that stay in their shipping crate.)

    What is "produced" with Poser? What does the user actually "do" with it. In general, the final product is a 2D image. (Why isn't there a 3D Rendering script for a 3D program, anyway? /boggle)

    So, if your target is an end-user that will produce an end-product with your product, what do you "advertise?" You advertise how easy it is to produce an end-product and how great those end-products look, right?

    Advertising how easy and powerful Poser is for the use of producing an end-product with it - SM gets decent good grades for that in what advertising and promotion that I've seen, but it's targeted towards people who inherently understand "technical stuffs." Fair enough.

    Advertising the end-product capabilities Poser can bring to the user - Very limited exposure, here. There are no "end product" promotions worth mentioning other than the cover art for the e-box... And, that is limited.

    So, why is that? I think it's pretty simple, really - SM doesn't "do" content and, with a few exceptions, included content is of the more "basic" variety. From an SM point-of-view, given what has been promoted, this is well within their basic advertising constraints. They don't promise or offer the content as being the main draw, they promise a technically proficient application that will help artists/creators produce the end-product content they desire. That includes, traditionally, artists and creators willing to use extra steps to get their unique, custom, ideas into something that will produce the desired end-product. And, if they need some help along the way, Poser has an included library of products and can incorporate other unique items, as well, fairly easily.

    In contrast, briefly, competition offers "explore and play with our content in a relatively captive setting." The main focus of advertising is, and always has been, "content display."

    There can't be much of an argument that "content" and the "results" generated with it is a critical point of advertising for Poser in regards to certain types of likely "new users." This is a desirable market for Poser and is the one that needs the most shepherding and stewardship in order to yield good purchase results.

    In short, Poser advertises technical capability very well. However, it appears to ignore a critical market segment of users that are extremely interested in "final products" that do not take a large degree of technical proficiency to create. That means that, in order to gain access and to secure this market share, which is critical, since it will never, ever, cease to expand, SM needs to focus more on demonstrating its products "end-product production" capabilities. That means wow-factor 2D renders, great animations, and, unfortunately, SM-generated content, and/or licensed 3'rd party content, that can be included in the product and can be used in promotions.

    Despite its technical capabilities, which savvy users do appreciate, its advertising failings deal with content and end-product issues. It should be no surprise that this is the result of very real shortcomings in this area, largely due to the reliance of third-party producers who have largely rebelled and artists that have been lured/coerced into intimate partnerships outside of the SM pipeline.

    Some unique problems that have to be faced:

    There is, traditionally, no brand stewardship associated with Poser content. There are few restrictions placed upon quality or suitability for Poser-promoted items. This is, of course, due to the fact that Poser is designed, from the ground up, to easily incorporate such things. As a result, such controls are lacking in most markets that cater to those seeking third-party content. What that means is that there are little controls in place that help to ensure an end-user's satisfaction with overall product performance with the large number of third-party content available. That's not A Good Thing for the largest, most desirable, market segment out there - the end-user, recurrent purchaser of content, relatively "3d novice" customer.

    There is no meaningful avenue, right now, available for SM to place any controls over this. That is because SM does not have sufficient control over a large enough, meaningful enough, content providing pipeline. Perhaps they shouldn't expand controls in that area? That could, in the long run, cause more damage to an already vulnerable area.

    Solution: The solution is not a "killer focus figure." That would help, of course, but the end-game solution, in both advertising and in ready-made stock resources, is going to be more of an emphasis on content creation, inclusion, and "end product" advertisement in order to reach a critical customer base that has been avoided. SM partnership with quality third-party content producers needs to be explored in order to take advantage of this unique, relatively inexpensive, third-party contractor relationship where expenses, aside from special commission work, are almost entirely limited to actual sales percentages from a managed marketplace. (ie: Performance-based commissions that benefit the seller and the content creator at the time of sale and don't represent "overhead costs.") Currently controlled point-of-sale markets must be focused on displaying and providing quality content that focuses on "end product production" for the potential consumer. Poser can easily maintain it's "under-the-hood quality" approach in its advertising while expanding its "end product capability" while doing this because the market segment interested in that is capable of understanding the impact of existing Poser advertising.

    TLDR: Poser needs additional focus on advertising the "end-product" that Poser is capable of producing to help capture that expanding market and needs good quality-stewardship over the third-party products that are promoted for use with Poser as well as increasing their availability.

    Note: An important point that must be emphasized and focused on in advertising: Recurrent sales, across the board in all aspects of any business connected to the "teh internets" is fast-becoming a focus topic across the entire world... "Services" are the largest commercial concerns in the world, today. They are the drivers of the modern marketplace and represent the continued flow of "blood" through businesses, today, keeping them alive and thriving.

    SM must focus on this aspect of the available marketplace or it will not have the resources it needs. That means that an emphasis on "services" and "return purchases" has to be explored. And, for SM and Poser, that means that "content purchasing" by its customers is a more critical area of focus than ever before. One customer is easily capable of spending three times the money on purchasing content for Poser than the purchase-price of a new Poser program over the development cycle of each iteration of Poser, itself. That constant revenue stream is vital and must be captured, at least partially. That includes, in my opinion, delaying iterations of Poser if necessary funds to explore this are available. If they are not, then, by all means, produce the next iteration. But, funding must then be set aside to expand this "service" and to capture and, importantly, build this revenue stream.



  • @morkonan The irony of your entire comments is that SM/Poser doesn't even exert quality control over it's own store.

    How is it you think they should branch out of a branch they don't even function in?



  • @erogenesis said in How would you Promote Poser?:

    In all her amateurishness, she exposes a lot of the treasures of CGI to broke-ass artists and hobbyists like us, with potentially amazing results. All you need is the determination. All the math is there, the options are there, the renderer is there, both Firefly and Superfly, and much like with painting with oils and acrylic, or making a photo with a digital SLR, you do need to know your stuff. IF you do, Poser will be friendly to you.

    You eloquently summed up 90% of what is wrong with Poser: Lack of experience and proper understanding of Poser by those who bitterly complain about it.



  • @krios

    Personal feelings coming here. Been thinking about this stuff for years. Poser has many uses, and many potential markets, some of which aren't addressed often. We don't encounter them all in the forums, where the primary audience is casual users and content creators.

    Casual users -- The way I see it is, there are many people who are new to 3D that are introduced to it through Poser. These people simply want to make ART, without getting into the nitty gritty. They don't want to get involved in the innards of a CR2 file or dynamic clothing, they want to put together content, clothing, poses, materials, etc to make a pretty picture. Nothing bad about that. But they are a large part of the online Poser community, and are the primary reason that good content is essential for Poser.

    Content creators -- To satisfy the needs of the casual artist/hobbiest, many people graduate to content creation, which is another essential part of Poser. Poser 11 offered a start to more beefy content creation tools, but there is still a way to go. The kinks have to be worked out in scaling zones, animated joint centers, grouping and symmetry issues, OBJ import and export, and other content creation tasks that can make the process go smoother. Content creation is an important and VITAL piece of the Poser universe that actually touches on pretty much every potential market. And content creators, too, have to keep the first group in mind and make the content as easy to use as possible.

    Cartoon artists - Poser's toon shading features address this need pretty well. These features can be used in comic book art as well as cartoon animation.

    Accident/crime reconstruction - This is a potential market that I rarely see mentioned, but to me it's a viable one. Thing is, "realism" in this field is actually a detriment (realism has the potential of swaying a jury and that wouldn't be a good thing in a trial). So you generally only need simple content, primitive figures, simple materials, etc. A lot of Poser's very old content might suffice here. The measurement tools in Poser help create scenes where content can be accurately positioned for scene reconstruction.

    "Mugshots" - this is actually an area of crime where realism would be of benefit. 3D mugshots. A 3D variation of the typical black and white renderings that sketchbook artists work on with people who are witnesses or victims of crimes. Thing is, to accomplish this, you would need one heck of a database of morphs. Every eye shape, nose shape, mouth shape, and feature variation that you can think of. The face room doesn't cut it, because the selection of morphs for these intricate variations isn't there, as are better "pipeline" tools that integrate Poser with higher end apps.

    Education: Poser can be used to introduce children to 3D animation. Also used for creating training materials. Don't want "private areas" for content geared toward minors. Very important.

    Animation (cartoon and previsualization): As mentioned previously, Poser's toon features can help generate toon animations without the need for long rendering times. In the professional industry, where realism is necessary, Poser's not the fastest kid on the block when it comes to acceptible rendering times, so those tasks are usually put into the hands of more robust, higher end modelers or renderers. Still, Poser can be used for previsualization to block out scenes beforehand. Rendering and animation features are essential for this area.

    But because of all these potential markets, Poser is in a situation where it pretty much has to try to be "all things to all people." I can't think of ANY software that meets that criteria. I can't think of how many different modeling and texturing programs I've tried through the years, and still rely on more than one to accomplish certain tasks.

    If you think about things in this manner, that Poser has a wide variety of users who have a wide variety of needs, perhaps the posts regarding Poser can become less "SM bashing" and more "constructive criticism." As the saying goes, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar." ;-)



  • @krios said in How would you Promote Poser?:

    You eloquently summed up 90% of what is wrong with Poser: Lack of experience and proper understanding of Poser by those who bitterly complain about it.

    Hehe, well... :D

    @Deecey said in How would you Promote Poser?:

    Poser has many uses, and many potential markets, some of which aren't addressed often. We don't encounter them all in the forums, where the primary audience is casual users and content creators.

    Very interesting DC thanks for sharing! I knew about the forensics and mugshots thing, which is also something I wanted to somehow address. PE's face morphs should provide a tonne of options there too. Indeed education will need a genless version of any figure made for Poser, but there could also be options for university / medical lectures and classes. I also want to bring back a little of @larrywberg 's original concept for Poser, namely that it was to be software for drawing artists to use as pose references... in other words lots of artistic poses!

    There is one category of artists that you haven't specified there, maybe I missed it as part of one category there, I'm not sure of their size but I think they might be fairly sizable, probably along the same size as the cartoon artists you mention, if not larger. That is of the professional artist / comic creator. Many of them are obviously erotica artists, and I know of at least 40/50 of them over at Renderotica and Affect3D. Some of them are very successful and make serious cash with their comics and picture series. Blackadder, Epoch, Skatingjesus, KristinF, Miro, etc. Before I started with Lali's Bits, I lived off comics and it was a fairly decent lifestyle. I hope to go back there after PE because its a lot of fun. I also want to make mainstream comics using Poser and I think that's something that not many people yet do. I'm secretly hoping to start off a trend because I don't think many people in the 3D art world know of Poser's potential.



  • @erogenesis
    I'm not actually sure if Poser is used in the forensics/reconstruction market. It should be, because I would think that is an excellent potential market for it!

    And yeah, I sort of covered the comic/animation bit, though not as extensively maybe as I should.

    I also know there is an entire industry of erotica out there (hahahaha ... didn't go there! LOL)