Hairy business: dynamics



  • Converting hair figure/prop to cloth simulation.

    If we were to have a simple geometry to simulate the movement of long hair as a dynamic cloth prop, constrained to the head, would it be possible to attach a more elaborate hair model to the simulated one so that it can inherit its movements?

    0_1509833049046_hairy-business_2.jpg

    What would be the best way to attach the complex hair to the dynamic cloth simulated placeholder?



  • Hello Krios,

    Your amazing animation in progress is what brought me to this forum. I've just joined up.

    I am fairly certain that what you suggest isn't possible. If your simplified hair geometry was used in the cloth room, you could perhaps try fitting the actual hair over the resulting simulation and use the built-in dials of the real hair to copy or follow the cloth animation. The cloth simulation would be a guide that you would make invisible or delete for the final render but I think it would be a lot of work and would be difficult to get results you would be happy with.

    On the other hand, with practice it could become easier as you become very familiar with the hair dials.

    I'm so new to this forum that I don't yet know the rules about what is allowed to be mentioned - but a very good hair simulator is available elsewhere. I do recall seeing it spoken of in an earlier visit but I don't want to break any rules here.



  • @grimhilda
    Hi Grimhilda,
    Welcome to the Poser forum!

    For a short clip animating with dials wouldn't be a big deal, but for longer animations with several characters, it would be nice to take a few shortcuts.
    Apparently there are soft and rigid groups of cloth that act as decoration attached to a given cloth. If the hi rez hair could be a decoration attached to the underlying model, it might work. Maybe some experimenting will get some results.

    But there are more technically advanced artists hanging about who managed to convert hair props to sims with impressive results.



  • Strip hair has been converted to cloth sim. IIRC, there's one that someone specifically constructed for that available as a freebie. ShareCG, maybe? It was originally linked in a thread on the subject at Renderosity and came out of that discussion.

    One issue is that it puts a lot of work on the Cloth Sim for what you end up with.

    Here, where you're effectively using a primitive sim a guide, you'd still have a lot of collision calcs to get a mass of strip hair to follow it.

    Here's what I one could do, in Poser, providing one was proficient enough with Python. And, this is the sole reason I want to learn "how to python" so I can "Poserpython."

    1)Take a regular conforming or prop strip transmapped hair model that you like, since that's the best hair, in terms of realistic looking results, we have access to right now.

    1. Run an operation that does two things:

    a) Identifies the "cap" and the ends of the strips that are closest to it or identifies the ends of the strips closest to the "head/neck" groups. This is the "start" point for a strand.

    b) Then identifies all edges contiguously running along the strip from the start point to the end point.

    1. Create "guide hairs" from these edges for the Hair Sim to use.

    Now, you have two options:

    1. Hair Room is opened with pre-made guide-hair model ready for populating.

    Or

    1. guide hairs are converted to simple geometry and made ready for the Cloth Room.

    Once the selected sim is run, then:

    1. Have fun with your Poser hair-prop generated by the script

    or

    1. The sim is run in the cloth room. Then, the resulting edges after the sim are used as guides for the geometry of the actual base model in order to create a new morph for it.

    Extracting edges from a strip-hair model and then using them as "guide hairs" is already possible in advanced programs that have hair engines. Tweaking that idea to work in Poser is probably "possible", but I can't stand the Hair Room, so I want some sort of transmapped auto-morph-creation solution. Ideally, the operation would just recreate an entire hair model, almost like sub-dividing the orginal, but with many more "hair strips", all mapped with the original texture and derivatives of the transmap or a new type of transmap. Yes, it'd be heck on resources to render, but the quality would be better and one.... doesn't have to model any hair! (Though, being derivatives of an artists work, they couldn't be redistributed. And, SM/Poser is pretty careful about trying to prevent content abuse.)



  • @morkonan said in Hairy business: dynamics:

    Strip hair has been converted to cloth sim. IIRC, there's one that someone specifically constructed for that available as a freebie. ShareCG, maybe? It was originally linked in a thread on the subject at Renderosity and came out of that discussion.

    One issue is that it puts a lot of work on the Cloth Sim for what you end up with.

    Here, where you're effectively using a primitive sim a guide, you'd still have a lot of collision calcs to get a mass of strip hair to follow it.

    Here's what I one could do, in Poser, providing one was proficient enough with Python. And, this is the sole reason I want to learn "how to python" so I can "Poserpython."

    1)Take a regular conforming or prop strip transmapped hair model that you like, since that's the best hair, in terms of realistic looking results, we have access to right now.

    1. Run an operation that does two things:

    a) Identifies the "cap" and the ends of the strips that are closest to it or identifies the ends of the strips closest to the "head/neck" groups. This is the "start" point for a strand.

    b) Then identifies all edges contiguously running along the strip from the start point to the end point.

    1. Create "guide hairs" from these edges for the Hair Sim to use.

    Now, you have two options:

    1. Hair Room is opened with pre-made guide-hair model ready for populating.

    Or

    1. guide hairs are converted to simple geometry and made ready for the Cloth Room.

    Once the selected sim is run, then:

    1. Have fun with your Poser hair-prop generated by the script

    or

    1. The sim is run in the cloth room. Then, the resulting edges after the sim are used as guides for the geometry of the actual base model in order to create a new morph for it.

    Extracting edges from a strip-hair model and then using them as "guide hairs" is already possible in advanced programs that have hair engines. Tweaking that idea to work in Poser is probably "possible", but I can't stand the Hair Room, so I want some sort of transmapped auto-morph-creation solution. Ideally, the operation would just recreate an entire hair model, almost like sub-dividing the orginal, but with many more "hair strips", all mapped with the original texture and derivatives of the transmap or a new type of transmap. Yes, it'd be heck on resources to render, but the quality would be better and one.... doesn't have to model any hair! (Though, being derivatives of an artists work, they couldn't be redistributed. And, SM/Poser is pretty careful about trying to prevent content abuse.)

    You might be interested in this, then. Found it yesterday.

    Python for Poser by PhilC



  • @morkonan
    This is some advanced stuff you speak of Morkonan, the only thing I know about Python is that it's not a snake.



  • @Deecey

    First, I have to conquer Python... Then, the PoserPythonverse! :)



  • @morkonan And then, Pinky, we Try To TAKE OVER THE WORLD!



  • @eclark1849 said in Hairy business: dynamics:

    @morkonan And then, Pinky, we Try To TAKE OVER THE WORLD!

    The same thing every night... :)

    Though, I am convinced that in order to do "stuff" that I want Poser to do for me, I have to wrestle a mighty Python beast. I'm not going to get any help doing stuff from Poser/SM. Little convenience things aren't desirable enough to get built into Poser. You know, things like "anything that involves the user doing anything really, really, cool." Cool stuffs, I want to do thems...

    and take over the world. ;)



  • @morkonan
    Look at it on the bright side... if you defeat or tame the Python, we'll call you Apollo.

    So what are the cool things you are trying to do with Poser?
    Have you tried using a different tool for the job in combination with Poser?



  • @krios said in Hairy business: dynamics:

    @morkonan
    Look at it on the bright side... if you defeat or tame the Python, we'll call you Apollo.

    So what are the cool things you are trying to do with Poser?
    Have you tried using a different tool for the job in combination with Poser?

    Yeah, I'm working with some other apps atm. Just bought the Substance indie pack, working with learning Blender a bit (I... can't stand Blender, but I can't fail to acknowledge its power... for free.) and I'm going to start on the Unreal Engine soon.

    What "cool stuff" do I want to do? The biggest thing I've wanted to do for YEARS is to solve the "hair" problem. Almost universally, "almost", there isn't any hair available for Poser that can match the realism of what a good Poser figure is capable of.

    That's like having a race-car, but not having anything but crappy re-tread tires for it. It's friggin' redicrurous... EVERYTHING in Poser has been pushed forward and improved... except for anything having to do with anything about "hair." Want "decent" hair? Grats you, here's some transmapped strip hair that has a decent transmap, but don't worry, you'll have to redo all the textures since they suck...

    Grrrrrr... Yeah, this gets me angry. :) You can tweak render settings until your fingers bleed and your processors beg you to stop, but no matter how darn awesome your render is, the hair will suck. Suck... Imagine spending hours fine-tuning, getting your render set up, letting it run for a bajillion years, everything looks wonderful... the hair looks like a car ran over a stray cat while it was humping a slightly surprised, but dead, raccoon.

    So, yeah, that's what sort of "cool" stuff I want to do - FIX POSER HAIR! :)

    /rant off ;)



  • @krios Just wondering, you were using or trying to use Poser's Cloth room on that hair model you were showing right? What if, instead, you used the Bullet Physics controls on the hair? You should even be able to style it a bit if you constrain the hair by varying amounts.



  • @morkonan
    A good solution for the hair would be nice. At some point I tried making a hair model for dynamic cloth simulation, but it just ended up looking like a rag on the character's head.

    @eclark1849
    The bullet physics might hold some possibilities, but it requires a lot of experimenting for now. Don't even know how to include body parts into the sim... it only recognizes objects

    0_1510249166924_hairy-business_3.jpg



  • Hair has its own physical qualities. It has "memory" and, in aggregate, it has volume and collision effects in the interior. High quality, lifelike, movement effects for hair are very intensive calculations. I don't think Poser will ever be robust enough, nor its customer base have the resources, to render "Planet of the Apes" (reboot version) quality hair movement in animations.

    What I want is at least realistic looking hair for still shots. I'm not too concerned about animation and movement effects other than a primary drape/generation. Currently, what's available is transmapped hair, which is generally of widely varying quality and even good models have baked in highlights/bad materials, or Poser's dynamic hair, which was fine for its day, but it has never, ever, yielded desirable results. (Proof = Nobody uses it, nobody makes products for it, it's only ever rendered as an example of what the Hair Room cough up)

    There have been some great "materials" threads here. But, what's needed is a combined approach, something that at least approaches a level of success across all features of "hair" that yields a reasonably consistent result in terms of quality of "realism."

    All too often, it's a case of "on thing or another" just... sucking. I'm pretty easy to satisfy and am willing to work on personal solutions if I can just get something that is workable in terms of realism. Dynamic hair hits a brick wall with ease-of-use and substandard material effects while transmapped strip hair is entirely hit-or-miss in terms of realism. Actually, most transmapped strip hair models are physically impossible shapes and styles for realistic hair to achieve without the use of plaster and heavy construction materials.

    I guess the reference images for most hair models were pictures of what happens when someone styles their hair with "Gorilla Glue." It's also why most hair models look like "helmets" instead of "hair." Then again, all 3D characters could still be living in the ''80's...

    alt text



  • @morkonan
    And that's why the glorious updo hair has been invented:

    0_1510267808513_updus.jpg

    Imagine some of these with traditional "helmet" hair and some runaway segments as bullet physics:

    0_1510267891192_ref.jpg

    BTW, can anyone recommend some good updo hair models?



  • Hair as a cloth would be excellent, it's the reason why all Poser women have short hair. Of course, skin in Poser should also be a cloth, since between joints the skinis just, well, wrong. Of course, the muscles should span joints, which is why Poser has short-hared woman and men, with no muscle tone (you can see the flaws with both hair and skin that way...)



  • @morkonan said in Hairy business: dynamics:

    the hair looks like a car ran over a stray cat while it was humping a slightly surprised, but dead, raccoon.

    ROFL!!!


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to Graphics Forum was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.