Making poses



  • Usually, I use canned poses and tweak them to my needs for the scenes I make. But I need to make a pose I don't have anything like so I'm going to have to make it from scratch. I know that poser figures can bend in ways that would put a real person into the hospital, sometimes even with limits on. Can someone recommend some good sites to learn about proper bending so I can get the best pose possible? For me, just looking at someone in the pose doesn't tell me if I should bend this joint or twist that one.



  • @redphantom Personally, I decide what to twist or bend by trying to put myself in a pose and seeing which way my body twists, or bends or moves sideways and how far it will go. Most body joints can only do about 45 to 50 degrees. Maybe a little more if they're real limber.



  • @redphantom @eclark1849 Yes, that's the best way. See how you bend. use a mirror if you have to.



  • HUSH - without banging my own drum too much:

    If you want to create poses for V4, then you should definitely use SASHA-16.

    It has all the realistic limits already built in, plus it lets you define some leeway to "cheat" if you must (user configurable anytime by simple control dials).

    In addition it has a bunch of "Easy Posing" dials in the Body actor for more complex movements.

    Even posing SASHA with the mouse by dragging on the limbs and parts will result in realistic and easy to control movements.
    No more worries about anatomically impossible bendings!

    I bet a cask of Scotch Malt Whisky that you haven't seen similar ease of use before, seriously!

    With SASHA even building "couple" poses becomes a piece of cake because it is so easy to handle.

    SASHA-16 is here:
    http://sasha-16.forumprofi.de/forumdisplay.php

    Make sure to read chapters 2. and 6. in the manual.

    Happy posing/Posering!

    Karina

    P.S.:
    Poses made for V4 /SASHA can by used on most other figures too, with minor adjustments.
    It ain't witchcraft... :D



  • @redphantom

    Go to Deviantart and look up pose reference material. There is a great deal of free photographs of models posing so that artists can use them for references.

    There are also a really good number of "expression" photographs, too, where models/actors do some photo refs for facial expressions. Using a good photo ref when creating expressions can give you a really good result, especially if you're working on custom expressions.

    It's easy to look at dial limits and think "Well, those are the limits..." and let that be the end of it. Even using "autobalance" in Poser can yield... improbable results. It's not that it doesn't "balance" the figure, it's that most people just don't balance that way. :)

    Deviantart is an outstanding, free, library of reference material.

    For "movement" reference material, I'd recommend looking at some still shots from movies. You can find those anywhere on the net, simply start with a search for "movie" and you'll be inundated with reference photos. Search for "Movie ___" with the blank filled in with the sort of movement you're looking to pose. You can also find animated gifs you can then examine frame-by-frame to catch subtle motion poses.

    ie: Deviantart - Search for Pose Reference, usually under Photography, Stock Images/Resources, also search for Expression / Emotion Reference in the same area. "Google Images" for the rest, especially specific motions/poses.



  • My personal favorite, Human Figure in Motion, most of the clips show both front and side images.
    https://www.amazon.com/Human-Figure-Motion-Eadweard-Muybridge/dp/0486202046/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1510014983&sr=8-2&keywords=human+in+motion
    Bill



  • Unfortunately, I'm not using V4. I could probably find the pose for her. How do you tell from a picture, if it's the collar moving or the upper arm? Or if the forearm is twisting or the wrist? I realize it's probably both, but how do you know how much for each?


  • Poser Ambassadors

    The best tool to create morphs and Poses is a mirror next to your Poser workstations and your mark 3 eyeballs. :-)



  • @redphantom I agree with Vilters. Stand in front of a mirror and try to recreate the pose you want to make. Which parts of your body do you move, bend, twist or move side to side? You probably won't be able to get any pose exact, but does it "look" right?



  • Also, here's a Renderosity Poser Tutorial on Posing.
    Hope it helps.



  • Some basic info:

    Joint flexibility

    Also, some joint rotation limits used in SecondLife:

    http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Suggested_BVH_Joint_Rotation_Limits



  • @redphantom said in Making poses:

    Or if the forearm is twisting or the wrist?

    If you try to twist your wrist you'll find out it can't be done. It's all the forearm.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    i.e. twisting.

    I'd recommend a good anatomy book like Valerie Winslow's Classic Human Anatomy in Motion. Very good to have as reference - if you have an idea of what the bones are doing, everything else will follow from that knowledge.



  • @redphantom said in Making poses:

    Unfortunately, I'm not using V4. I could probably find the pose for her. How do you tell from a picture, if it's the collar moving or the upper arm? Or if the forearm is twisting or the wrist? I realize it's probably both, but how do you know how much for each?

    Load up your desired figure.

    Load up a primitive plane.

    In the materials room, assign an image of the pose you're trying to duplicate to the plane. For extra visibility, assign the image to be an ambient color and bump that up a bit. Also, either reduce the specular to 0 or assign it as the specular color, as well.

    AND, because the "Front Camera" is still wonky as all heck, use either another camera set to 0 yaw/etc to get a good front image that is square-on or use the Face Camera and don't adjust its yaw/pitch, but pull it back a bit so you can see both the image on the plane and the figure.

    Scale the plane so the posed person is roughly the same size as your figure.

    Hide the ground plane, scale the primitive plane to the same ratio as the image, if the image isn't truly 1:1 square, and... start matching the figure's pose to the image.

    Once you've got it matched up from that angle, fine tune it and save the pose.

    Add: This is just a free way to get you the resources you need. There are many wonderful artist instructional books and such out there, too. And, you should also pay attention to sculpting resources, as well. 3D figure creators can make good use of them, but some of the principles are easily applied to creating realistic human poses as well as "dramatic" poses.

    Note: deleted a post because I accidentally duped it.



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    @Deecey said in Making poses:

    @redphantom said in Making poses:

    Or if the forearm is twisting or the wrist?

    If you try to twist your wrist you'll find out it can't be done. It's all the forearm.

    I've found that due to the nature of Poser's rigging it's often necessary to add in joint rotations that normally would not happen in real life, in order to make the posing more natural looking for the figure. Fingers are a good example of this. In real life none of them really twist, and only the first segments can actually move side to side. But the subsequent 2nd and 3rd digits (phalanx) aren't frozen, they just can't be moved side-side on their own. They do move side-side and twist when pressure is applied at various poses - like gripping different objects or putting the hand on the hips, etc. So adding some rotations for each axis is important in order to get that sort of pose to translate well into a poser figure.

    It's also necessary at times to turn off limits in order to achieve certain types of poses. Some joints in the human body have a certain range of motion on their own, but then a further range of motion when influenced by another body part. Fingers are again a good example of this. Try bending one of your fingers to a 90 degree position (towards your palm) without moving the other fingers. Most people can't bend just one finger that far on its own without it pulling the others down at least a few degrees. But when you bend all 4 at the same time they have a further range.

    If Poser had an underlying muscle system then these poses would happen a lot more naturally without having to force as much.



  • Thanks for all the advice. I'll see what I can make with it. Maybe now, my figures can have some more natural looking poses and variety of poses as the story progresses.



  • @AmbientShade said in Making poses:
    ...>

    If Poser had an underlying muscle system then these poses would happen a lot more naturally without having to force as much.

    ? "Muscle System?"

    That's a pretty hefty bit of tech and, for a long time, people were doing it all wrong. (see Weta Digital's vids/interviews on their work on "muscle movement" for the Gollum character in "The Hobbit.")

    Poser has a fine "muscle system" - JCMs :) Though, most tend to overdo it and only the barest of detectable surface changes happen with most normal movement. It's only when stress is put on a muscle group that it will visibly deform. And, many limbs where subsurface movement is always detectable are due to muscles interacting with tendons, not muscle contraction, itself. Another issue is, sometimes, that people make morphs thinking that muscles do something other than contract...

    The more important, visible, part of "realism" doesn't have anything to do with muscle movement. "Compression effects" like the flesh between joints is much more important for realism. Skin folds, flesh compressing and being pushed outward around the joint, "volume" effects, etc. Then, there's gravity, jiggles, momentum of flesh, etc... A still shot of someone at one particular moment when they "stamp their foot", if one could see everything that its going on with that, would look like the person was deformed in some way. But, without that, during an animation, the figure's movements look robotic, artificial, etc... It's as if the flesh on the figure didn't exist at all and they were wearing a plastic suit. IF one cares about such things, that is.

    Working with some JCMs for flesh compression/extension effects during joint movement would probably give one some much more realistic results than anything to do with "muscles." Add some tendon definition for certain moves and that would flesh things out nicely.

    Note: I have often lamented not being able to use compound conditions for JCMs, like "and" statements to command specific combination morphs that wouldn't be called in any other single-group movement.

    I assume this is the sort of thing when you mention "muscles."


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @morkonan Filling a figure to the brim with jcms makes it content-creation phobic. That works for a one-off personal use figure but not for one that is intended for use by the average user or content artist. JCMs are meant for filling in the gaps where the rigging and geometry fall short, not as a substitute for proper rigging and geometry.
    Ligaments and tendons are all part of the muscle system. They also stretch as well as compress and they look different depending on the motion - sliding over and under each other in various areas depending on the pose.
    Not sure why you sited weta's tissue system in the same statement as "doing it wrong" unless I misunderstood what you meant. So far there is nothing else out there I know of that achieves the same level of realism.

    One could make most any figure in Poser pose like a natural human just using only JCMs and never touch a single weight map or bulge map, but most would never bother to make content for it as it would be a nightmare to try, unless you also incorporated a way for poser to use real time dynamic clothing and it replaced conformers in popularity. The closest it's gotten so far is the physics room, and its popularity should be evident by how often it's (not even) mentioned.



  • @AmbientShade said in Making poses:

    @morkonan Filling a figure to the brim with jcms makes it content-creation phobic.

    Do you want a high-quality figure with realistic deformations "built in" or one that is content-creation friendly?

    One can incorporate, customize and fine-tune figure JCMs into super-conforming clothing, no problem.

    That works for a one-off personal use figure but not for one that is intended for use by the average user or content artist. JCMs are meant for filling in the gaps where the rigging and geometry fall short, not as a substitute for proper rigging and geometry.

    When you have a rig that is the most basic possible for a figure, which is generally what Poser rigs are, then what? That's what we're dealing with, normally. For "joint" movement, they're generally fine. But, the various deformations, "muscle" and "flesh compression/fat" that people talk about aren't something you can easily add to the available Poser rigging parameters. Sure, you do a weight map and it'll look fine for what it is. I'm not arguing against such a thing. I'm just saying you can't do "everything" by pointing at a weight map or standard Poser rigging and shout "do!" :)

    ...sliding over and under each other in various areas depending on the pose.

    There are few things in the human body that "slide" over/under/around each other. They do get stretched, do move within a contained area, do have some limited freedom, but the concept of "sliding" stuffs, as it's usually expressed, isn't entirely accurate. If that was the case, we'd have mushy stuff constantly ending up in the wrong places with other mushy stuffs.

    Not sure why you sited weta's tissue system in the same statement as "doing it wrong" unless I misunderstood what you meant. So far there is nothing else out there I know of that achieves the same level of realism.

    I mentioned it because of their research on the whole subject of "sliding stuffs", specifically the idea that muscles "slide" under skin, which isn't what really happens at all. There was a really nice video interview where they described their research process and then showed how that influenced their work for The Hobbit. Gollum, in TLoTR, didn't use the same tech as they wanted to push the boundaries for The Hobbit, even if he had relatively less screen time.

    One could make most any figure in Poser pose like a natural human just using only JCMs and never touch a single weight map or bulge map, but most would never bother to make content for it as it would be a nightmare to try, unless you also incorporated a way for poser to use real time dynamic clothing and it replaced conformers in popularity. The closest it's gotten so far is the physics room, and its popularity should be evident by how often it's (not even) mentioned.

    I agree that the Physics stuff... (It's a Room?!) needs more focus.

    I'm not saying that one should only use JCMs and never would I suggest something like "improper rigging" and making up for that using JCMs. I'm just saying that if you want "this thing" then, given what we have access to in Poser, then you're going to have to do "that thing." You want a character that, when it bends from the waist and chest rigging, has a believable "belly roll" of flesh develop as well as compression effects and how the abdominal muscles get a bit rigid? No, you're not going to achieve that with "weight map everything all the time."

    I suppose you can sum this up fairly easily - What do you want? If you want something that isn't possible for the tools used and the amount of effort required that you're willing to accept, then you just don't get that "something."

    For myself, I enjoy creating JCMs... And, I'll even just do that for funsies on a figure I don't have any really plans for keeping around. I find it relaxing and enjoyable, since it provides immediate feedback. Yes, you can load up a figure with a huge amount of custom JCMs. With Pro, you can even customize it further using the new rigging tools. But, if someone wants a figure that has all this sort of stuff in it and will have all the sorts of realistic pose/movement effects that people clamor for, all the tools have to be used to achieve that until there's a version of Poser that incorporates real people in it that just happen to be tiny enough to live on the screen.