Making poses



  • My personal favorite, Human Figure in Motion, most of the clips show both front and side images.
    https://www.amazon.com/Human-Figure-Motion-Eadweard-Muybridge/dp/0486202046/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1510014983&sr=8-2&keywords=human+in+motion
    Bill



  • Unfortunately, I'm not using V4. I could probably find the pose for her. How do you tell from a picture, if it's the collar moving or the upper arm? Or if the forearm is twisting or the wrist? I realize it's probably both, but how do you know how much for each?


  • Poser Ambassadors

    The best tool to create morphs and Poses is a mirror next to your Poser workstations and your mark 3 eyeballs. :-)



  • @redphantom I agree with Vilters. Stand in front of a mirror and try to recreate the pose you want to make. Which parts of your body do you move, bend, twist or move side to side? You probably won't be able to get any pose exact, but does it "look" right?



  • Also, here's a Renderosity Poser Tutorial on Posing.
    Hope it helps.



  • Some basic info:

    Joint flexibility

    Also, some joint rotation limits used in SecondLife:

    http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Suggested_BVH_Joint_Rotation_Limits



  • @redphantom said in Making poses:

    Or if the forearm is twisting or the wrist?

    If you try to twist your wrist you'll find out it can't be done. It's all the forearm.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    i.e. twisting.

    I'd recommend a good anatomy book like Valerie Winslow's Classic Human Anatomy in Motion. Very good to have as reference - if you have an idea of what the bones are doing, everything else will follow from that knowledge.



  • @redphantom said in Making poses:

    Unfortunately, I'm not using V4. I could probably find the pose for her. How do you tell from a picture, if it's the collar moving or the upper arm? Or if the forearm is twisting or the wrist? I realize it's probably both, but how do you know how much for each?

    Load up your desired figure.

    Load up a primitive plane.

    In the materials room, assign an image of the pose you're trying to duplicate to the plane. For extra visibility, assign the image to be an ambient color and bump that up a bit. Also, either reduce the specular to 0 or assign it as the specular color, as well.

    AND, because the "Front Camera" is still wonky as all heck, use either another camera set to 0 yaw/etc to get a good front image that is square-on or use the Face Camera and don't adjust its yaw/pitch, but pull it back a bit so you can see both the image on the plane and the figure.

    Scale the plane so the posed person is roughly the same size as your figure.

    Hide the ground plane, scale the primitive plane to the same ratio as the image, if the image isn't truly 1:1 square, and... start matching the figure's pose to the image.

    Once you've got it matched up from that angle, fine tune it and save the pose.

    Add: This is just a free way to get you the resources you need. There are many wonderful artist instructional books and such out there, too. And, you should also pay attention to sculpting resources, as well. 3D figure creators can make good use of them, but some of the principles are easily applied to creating realistic human poses as well as "dramatic" poses.

    Note: deleted a post because I accidentally duped it.



  • This post is deleted!

  • Poser Ambassadors

    @Deecey said in Making poses:

    @redphantom said in Making poses:

    Or if the forearm is twisting or the wrist?

    If you try to twist your wrist you'll find out it can't be done. It's all the forearm.

    I've found that due to the nature of Poser's rigging it's often necessary to add in joint rotations that normally would not happen in real life, in order to make the posing more natural looking for the figure. Fingers are a good example of this. In real life none of them really twist, and only the first segments can actually move side to side. But the subsequent 2nd and 3rd digits (phalanx) aren't frozen, they just can't be moved side-side on their own. They do move side-side and twist when pressure is applied at various poses - like gripping different objects or putting the hand on the hips, etc. So adding some rotations for each axis is important in order to get that sort of pose to translate well into a poser figure.

    It's also necessary at times to turn off limits in order to achieve certain types of poses. Some joints in the human body have a certain range of motion on their own, but then a further range of motion when influenced by another body part. Fingers are again a good example of this. Try bending one of your fingers to a 90 degree position (towards your palm) without moving the other fingers. Most people can't bend just one finger that far on its own without it pulling the others down at least a few degrees. But when you bend all 4 at the same time they have a further range.

    If Poser had an underlying muscle system then these poses would happen a lot more naturally without having to force as much.



  • Thanks for all the advice. I'll see what I can make with it. Maybe now, my figures can have some more natural looking poses and variety of poses as the story progresses.



  • @AmbientShade said in Making poses:
    ...>

    If Poser had an underlying muscle system then these poses would happen a lot more naturally without having to force as much.

    ? "Muscle System?"

    That's a pretty hefty bit of tech and, for a long time, people were doing it all wrong. (see Weta Digital's vids/interviews on their work on "muscle movement" for the Gollum character in "The Hobbit.")

    Poser has a fine "muscle system" - JCMs :) Though, most tend to overdo it and only the barest of detectable surface changes happen with most normal movement. It's only when stress is put on a muscle group that it will visibly deform. And, many limbs where subsurface movement is always detectable are due to muscles interacting with tendons, not muscle contraction, itself. Another issue is, sometimes, that people make morphs thinking that muscles do something other than contract...

    The more important, visible, part of "realism" doesn't have anything to do with muscle movement. "Compression effects" like the flesh between joints is much more important for realism. Skin folds, flesh compressing and being pushed outward around the joint, "volume" effects, etc. Then, there's gravity, jiggles, momentum of flesh, etc... A still shot of someone at one particular moment when they "stamp their foot", if one could see everything that its going on with that, would look like the person was deformed in some way. But, without that, during an animation, the figure's movements look robotic, artificial, etc... It's as if the flesh on the figure didn't exist at all and they were wearing a plastic suit. IF one cares about such things, that is.

    Working with some JCMs for flesh compression/extension effects during joint movement would probably give one some much more realistic results than anything to do with "muscles." Add some tendon definition for certain moves and that would flesh things out nicely.

    Note: I have often lamented not being able to use compound conditions for JCMs, like "and" statements to command specific combination morphs that wouldn't be called in any other single-group movement.

    I assume this is the sort of thing when you mention "muscles."


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @morkonan Filling a figure to the brim with jcms makes it content-creation phobic. That works for a one-off personal use figure but not for one that is intended for use by the average user or content artist. JCMs are meant for filling in the gaps where the rigging and geometry fall short, not as a substitute for proper rigging and geometry.
    Ligaments and tendons are all part of the muscle system. They also stretch as well as compress and they look different depending on the motion - sliding over and under each other in various areas depending on the pose.
    Not sure why you sited weta's tissue system in the same statement as "doing it wrong" unless I misunderstood what you meant. So far there is nothing else out there I know of that achieves the same level of realism.

    One could make most any figure in Poser pose like a natural human just using only JCMs and never touch a single weight map or bulge map, but most would never bother to make content for it as it would be a nightmare to try, unless you also incorporated a way for poser to use real time dynamic clothing and it replaced conformers in popularity. The closest it's gotten so far is the physics room, and its popularity should be evident by how often it's (not even) mentioned.



  • @AmbientShade said in Making poses:

    @morkonan Filling a figure to the brim with jcms makes it content-creation phobic.

    Do you want a high-quality figure with realistic deformations "built in" or one that is content-creation friendly?

    One can incorporate, customize and fine-tune figure JCMs into super-conforming clothing, no problem.

    That works for a one-off personal use figure but not for one that is intended for use by the average user or content artist. JCMs are meant for filling in the gaps where the rigging and geometry fall short, not as a substitute for proper rigging and geometry.

    When you have a rig that is the most basic possible for a figure, which is generally what Poser rigs are, then what? That's what we're dealing with, normally. For "joint" movement, they're generally fine. But, the various deformations, "muscle" and "flesh compression/fat" that people talk about aren't something you can easily add to the available Poser rigging parameters. Sure, you do a weight map and it'll look fine for what it is. I'm not arguing against such a thing. I'm just saying you can't do "everything" by pointing at a weight map or standard Poser rigging and shout "do!" :)

    ...sliding over and under each other in various areas depending on the pose.

    There are few things in the human body that "slide" over/under/around each other. They do get stretched, do move within a contained area, do have some limited freedom, but the concept of "sliding" stuffs, as it's usually expressed, isn't entirely accurate. If that was the case, we'd have mushy stuff constantly ending up in the wrong places with other mushy stuffs.

    Not sure why you sited weta's tissue system in the same statement as "doing it wrong" unless I misunderstood what you meant. So far there is nothing else out there I know of that achieves the same level of realism.

    I mentioned it because of their research on the whole subject of "sliding stuffs", specifically the idea that muscles "slide" under skin, which isn't what really happens at all. There was a really nice video interview where they described their research process and then showed how that influenced their work for The Hobbit. Gollum, in TLoTR, didn't use the same tech as they wanted to push the boundaries for The Hobbit, even if he had relatively less screen time.

    One could make most any figure in Poser pose like a natural human just using only JCMs and never touch a single weight map or bulge map, but most would never bother to make content for it as it would be a nightmare to try, unless you also incorporated a way for poser to use real time dynamic clothing and it replaced conformers in popularity. The closest it's gotten so far is the physics room, and its popularity should be evident by how often it's (not even) mentioned.

    I agree that the Physics stuff... (It's a Room?!) needs more focus.

    I'm not saying that one should only use JCMs and never would I suggest something like "improper rigging" and making up for that using JCMs. I'm just saying that if you want "this thing" then, given what we have access to in Poser, then you're going to have to do "that thing." You want a character that, when it bends from the waist and chest rigging, has a believable "belly roll" of flesh develop as well as compression effects and how the abdominal muscles get a bit rigid? No, you're not going to achieve that with "weight map everything all the time."

    I suppose you can sum this up fairly easily - What do you want? If you want something that isn't possible for the tools used and the amount of effort required that you're willing to accept, then you just don't get that "something."

    For myself, I enjoy creating JCMs... And, I'll even just do that for funsies on a figure I don't have any really plans for keeping around. I find it relaxing and enjoyable, since it provides immediate feedback. Yes, you can load up a figure with a huge amount of custom JCMs. With Pro, you can even customize it further using the new rigging tools. But, if someone wants a figure that has all this sort of stuff in it and will have all the sorts of realistic pose/movement effects that people clamor for, all the tools have to be used to achieve that until there's a version of Poser that incorporates real people in it that just happen to be tiny enough to live on the screen.



  • @morkonan
    One of my long-time dream features would be to have the capability to convert a morph target to a weight map. Imagine using ZBrush to sculpt the way you want a joint to look when it's rotated, and then send it back to Poser with the option to convert to weight map and link it to a rotation.

    (sigh)



  • @Deecey

    Yeah, I don't think there's anyway to apply a mask to geometry for such things in Poser. That'd be really neat, though! Maybe something with the painting of weight/bulge maps or something?

    I haven't worked with ZBrush and Poser, but can't you already import Zbrush work using the bridge tool?



  • @morkonan
    Yes you can use the GoZ feature to go between Poser and ZBrush, but it only imports as a morph. The droolworthy feature would be the option to import it as a weight map.

    For me, morphs and "shape painting" are a lot more predictable in ZBrush, so if I could import those "deltas" in as a morph OR a weight map I would be a happy camper!



  • Unfortunately none of this will become a reality because morphs and weight maps work completely different.

    In a morph (JCM) you can make the polycons move in any direction you want, and you can create dependencies which make the most crazy movements possible by simply making them "valueOpKey" dependent.

    Weight maps don't work that way.

    Without going into detail here too much - just putting it simply:
    Weight maps (and bulge maps as well) only make polygons rotate around the centre of rotation of the limb.
    You can control the "strength" of rotation to a certain degree, but still those "strength" maps are completely linear relative to the bending of the joint.

    Just try to achieve those "belly rolls" @morkonan mentioned four posts ago with weight maps alone and you'll soon touch the limits of what weight maps can do.

    Flesh bulging sideways (relative to the rotation) can't be done at all, so you need to achieve this with JCMs.

    If you have SASHA you can easily check it out:

    • The "elbow" has three JCMs controlling the compression and sideways bulging of the "flesh".
    • The "knee" has two which activate consecutively, relative to bending angle.
    • There's another JCM in the upper thigh wich activates when SASHA is "sitting on her heels".
    • Another pair of JCMs can be found in the neck/head bend area which take care for a straight throat and neck back "rolls" when the head is bent back very far.

    You can't achieve any of them with weight maps. It's just a matter of technological limitations.
    Even in Poser pigs still can't fly... :D

    • For the upper outer thighs I used a ghost bone to make them bulge outwards when the figure is sitting, with pretty good result I think. The problem here is that you get problems with conforming trousers without that ghost bone.

    So the real challenge is to find a good balance between weight mapping, useage of "ghost bones", and JCMs.

    Yes I hear some content creators hollering:
    "But that's too much for to incorporate in the clothing! In P6 it was much easier!
    Today's tech is just too difficult to learn!"

    I reply:
    "No it isn't!
    --> Just add the two "Buttock" ghost bones to the trousers, that's all!
    Everything else (joint centres, weight maps and JCMs) can be easily copied into the clothing either by Poser native function "Copy Joint Zones" and "Copy Morphs" or by "Morphing Clothes" by "D3D".

    It takes less than 10 minutes, and another few hours to smooth the copied morphs.

    OTOH, if content creators feel "too challenged" by this, or it's just "too much new stuff" and "too much work"...
    Well they should think about selling content for Posette and The Dork, or start making cububar props!

    Tech moves on, and if you don't want to be left behind you'll have to keep pace with it.


    Please forgive me if my post doesn't take into consideration any possible layout, setup, computer specs, program versions down to P4, content creators feelings, or abilities, skill levels etc. etc.

    If you only look long enough there's always a "but".

    Here's one from me:

    "BUT if adapt to the new tech, users of P4/5/7/8 can't use it. I'll lose sales from them!"
    Sure you will. From a very few.

    But you'll also lose sales from the majority of Poser users who are mostly up to date with their Poser versions and expect stuff they buy to incorporate all the new technology which Poser has.

    Simply put: If you try to sell a "Commodore 64" to people who want a "Computer which performs fast in Counter Strike", you won't have many sales.

    It's your call...

    Sorry for the rant - it's not meant for anyone here in particular!

    REPEAT: IT'S NOT MEANT FOR ANYONE HERE IN PARTICULAR!

    I just wrote down some things that have been rumbling around my head for some time already when reading the forums, and I just felt brave enough today to make this post.
    Now you may start tearing me to pieces. :D

    Karina



  • @karina

    How do I copy the ghost bones? Copy joint zones and morphs is rather straightforward to me, copying bones is new to me.
    I trying to convert a set of stockings I made for V4 to sasha, but I'm getting poketroughs everywhere.