I don't get it... why SM's Poser gallery highlights water/fire effects?


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Damn, cross-posting with @eclark1849! (I wuz typing when he posted, so I'll post anyway) ....

    The wording above every gallery image is careful & deliberate. I don't see how it can be misunderstood, but I've added bold emphasis anyway - now to break it down:

    "Thousands of artists use Poser and other design tools to create incredible art."

    SM do not claim anywhere that the gallery images are created solely using Poser - they imply quite clearly that they are not.

    "Whether you're just indulging a hobby or you need something for a professional project, Poser and Poser content give you a wide range of characters to start from."

    This is the only claim SM does make for Poser - that it comes with a wide range of characters to get started. Which it does. Note they have also added "and Poser content" - that covers any content used by any artist in any gallery image that does not come with Poser itself.

    "Then it's up to you to make something great."

    The gallery is demonstrating the most important thing - individual creativity.

    "Spend some time in our gallery of featured artists who are at the top of their game to get some inspiration."

    SM is not using the gallery to demonstrate or advertise any specific features of Poser at all.

    I just don't see a problem here ;)



  • Everybody assumes those splashes must be some particle effect. It's possible those are some of Flick's water effects. It that's the case, that one is totally possible in poser. The rain could be the rain prop that used to be free at RNDA and I think is now at Daz. I think Traveler made it, but I could be wrong. The face in the water might have been another of flick's props with either the morph brush fitting it to a face or draping it in the clothroom and then turning it. The fire is the only one that is truly questionable and is probably postwork but maybe Jepe's fire effects at Daz might do it. I don't have any so I can only guess.

    I'm not saying this is how these were definitely done, but looking at the possibility. There's a heck of a lot you can do in Poser if you think outside the box and don't try to treat the scene like real life.



  • @redphantom said in I don't get it... why SM's Poser gallery highlights water/fire effects?:

    I'm not saying this is how these were definitely done, but looking at the possibility. There's a heck of a lot you can do in Poser if you think outside the box and don't try to treat the scene like real life.

    Several people have made pretty good "water effect" models with materials for Poser. Sure, they're not really dynamic effects, but they can look pretty decent and certainly Superfly can do a good job in rendering them.

    All of those could have probably been rendered in Poser using Superfly, given the materials and geometry. (Haven't looked at any of the "fire" ones, yet.)



  • @eclark1849 said in I don't get it... why SM's Poser gallery highlights water/fire effects?:

    @morkonan With all due respect, all that proves is that fbs7's reading comprehension needs to be improved. Here's the copy from the page he links to:

    Poser Photo Gallery

    Thousands of artists use Poser and other design tools to create incredible art. Whether you're just indulging a hobby or you need something for a professional project, Poser and Poser content give you a wide range of characters to start from. Then it's up to you to make something great.

    Yeah, same way as someone else's reading comprehension needs improving if he sees a Gallery from McDonald's website saying "Thousand of people eat wonderful food as this from McDonalds and other places":

    0_1511992485476_a.jpg

    ... and then they go to McDonald's expecting to get a pizza and some chicken wings.

    MacDonalds shouldn't take benefit of showing chicken wings if they don't sell chicken wings. It's one thing to have that image at Foods.com or from Uncle Bob posting what he has for dinner everyday, and a very different thing having that at MacDonalds.com.



  • @fbs7
    That seems to be comparing apples to oranges.

    The images on the SM web site have, in some way, passed through Poser in some way. Poser was one of the tools used in creating the image.

    In your example, it's not the same situation. The McDonald's example you give shows food available at other restaurants, that doesn't relate to McDonalds in any way. Unless of course you go to Pizza Hut's site and find out they have a Big Mac pizza that tops the pizza with "two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, and sesame seed buns" that they bought at McDonalds.

    8-)

    Here's another example. I want to make a painting. I gather my paint tubes and brushes and a nice canvas together. But along the way I get inspired to do something different. Instead of using brushes, I use my hands and sponges to distribute the paint. And instead of painting on a canvas, I paint on a piece of plywood, or an old milk can that I picked up at the junkyard.

    Does it make it any less a painting because I used different materials to produce it?


  • Poser Ambassadors

    So, shaders made in Poser don't qualify for renders in a Poser gallery?



  • To be sure of my beef with water/fire/smoke, let me emphasize my previous statements.

    I don't have anything against effects shaders (including shaders that look like liquid or smoke or fire) or post-work done with whatever software or textures done with whatever software or meshes done in whatever software. SM has spent a lot of time and money to support that, so if someone renders something in Poser with whatever meshes and textures and shaders, and does post work in some image editing program, that's all fine and fair. Post that as artwork displayed by SM featuring their product, as they have spent the time and money to support all that.

    Realistic 3D water/fire/smoke are a different matter. SM has spent zero to support any of that. It's not fair that SM claims that to showcase their product.

    Procedural 2D water/fire/smoke (that is, texture based or shader based) look very different than 3D water/fire/smoke simulations; there's a reason why these particle simulation exist in high end software.



  • @Deecey said in I don't get it... why SM's Poser gallery highlights water/fire effects?:

    @fbs7
    That seems to be comparing apples to oranges.

    In your example, it's not the same situation. The McDonald's example you give shows food available at other restaurants, that doesn't relate to McDonalds in any way. Unless of course you go to Pizza Hut's site and find out they have a Big Mac pizza that tops the pizza with "two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, and sesame seed buns" that they bought at McDonalds.

    Correct, but then you know up front that MacDonalds only do hamburguers. So anyone reading these forums will know that Poser has zero fire/water/smoke simulations. But a newcomer coming to Poser may be impressed with these wonderful water effects the wrong idea, in the same way that if I had said "Aunt Annie Restaurant" instead of MacDonald then many of us would assume that Aunt's restaurant has all those goodies.

    Say, last year I bought Plants vs Zombies Garden Warfare thinking that it was like Plants vs Zombies. It was the biggest shock for me in the last 10 years! I could hardly speak for a couple of days! Someone selling something needs to be plenty clear of what they are selling, that's what I think.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @fbs7 So anyone reading these forums will know that Poser has zero fire/water/smoke simulations. But a newcomer coming to Poser may be impressed with these wonderful water effects the wrong idea, in the same way that if I had said "Aunt Annie Restaurant" instead of MacDonald then many of us would assume that Aunt's restaurant has all those goodies.

    No, new user will be impressed about this amount of negativity to find in anything flaws and hair.
    What you see in the Gallery calls artistic freedom.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @fbs7 A lot of things in Poser started out as 3rd party plug-ins before they ever became part of official Poser. Python coders have been creating various things for it for years using scripts. Wardrobe wizard was a 3rd party script before it ever became a standard feature of Poser, for example.

    Particles are possible in Poser via python. Various people have made their own particle systems for Poser over the years. Metaballs is one of them - available as far back as Poser 6 or 7. It just stopped working with one of the more recent versions of Poser and its creator never updated it.

    So while it's not specifically a feature in Poser, python allows for people to make a lot of things, just like they can make shaders with the material room. So how is that any different?

    Here's one example of particles in Poser (which took me all of 10 seconds to find via google):


  • Poser Ambassadors

    When I take a look over the DAZ Gallery , I see many awesome art. Almost all of them are heavy postworked. But did DAZ and the DS user care about this? No, they just enjoy beautiful art and don't care how it was done.
    But the Poser user they again just bitch around and find even beautiful created art offensive. No wonder people turn away.



  • @fbs7
    I think you are missing my point.

    In the case of the images on the SM web site, artists used Poser as part of their process to make the images. And SM implied that very thing in the text they added ... that the artists used Poser AND OTHER TOOLS to create their art.

    You are comparing that to McDonalds featuring food from other restaurants on their site. But what I am saying is, that is not an apples to apples comparison. Because any photo that is NOT a McDonald's menu item has nothing AT ALL to do with McDonalds, whereas in the SM case, ALL the images passed through Poser in all or part of the creation of the image.

    I guess I'm done with this though. I don't really understand the beef you have about this (nod to McDonald's unintentional LOL), and it seems you probably won't understand the point I'm trying to make either. Peace, out!


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @fbs7 PS - McDonalds actually does sell pizza in some areas of the US. At least they used to. They also sell hotdogs and tacos, and that horrible mcrib thing that people like to call food (spamburger with barbeque sauce). In some countries they even sell sushi and other seafoods. They're just mostly known for hamburgers.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @AmbientShade said in I don't get it... why SM's Poser gallery highlights water/fire effects?:

    @fbs7 PS - McDonalds actually does sell pizza in some areas of the US. At least they used to. They also sell hotdogs and tacos, and that horrible mcrib thing that people like to call food (spamburger with barbeque sauce). In some countries they even sell sushi and other seafoods. They're just mostly known for hamburgers.

    In some countries (France) they even sell beer and wine


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @wimvdb I've heard they do in NYC and LA too. Us country folk don't get those luxuries tho. Hell I even live in a dry county.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    To bring it back to Poser.
    In the last 6 years almost all of my images have been rendered in Octane.
    To create that image I spent at least 90% of the time in Poser: Creating the scene, posing the figures, props, expressions. Adapting the textures, materials, pokes throughs, etc.
    The final 10% of the time is spent in the Poser plugin to modify materials and add special effects.
    The render takes a few minutes.

    So I perfectly feel fine to say this is a Poser image since I spent 90% of my time composing the image and upload to the Poser Artist gallery if I think the end result is worthwhile to be seen to the general public.



  • @AmbientShade said in I don't get it... why SM's Poser gallery highlights water/fire effects?:

    Particles are possible in Poser via python. Various people have made their own particle systems for Poser over the years. Metaballs is one of them - available as far back as Poser 6 or 7. It just stopped working with one of the more recent versions of Poser and its creator never updated it.

    That's a pretty good argument, because SM did spend a lot of money and time preparing an interface in Python for add-ons, so if someone uses that to add simulation effects in Poser, then SM can very fairly take credit for that.

    I suspect that liquid physics should be possible in Poser via Python, because that's really just a mesh (although very varying one), and I suspect particles emitters should be feasible too. It's a pity that's not available.

    I have no idea if fire and smoke would be possible via Python, though, as I don't understand their implementation; I suspect they rely heavily in the rendering effects.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Every Render is mixed media.

    The models are done in a model software, the textures can be done in a texturer and so on.

    Poser is like the tool where one can combine, setup and basically be your own director of a scene.