Any idea why this happens? (Inconsistent render results)



  • I have sort of pointed this out before, I don't recall getting any kind of resolution to the issue. It continues to annoy me though, so let's try again.

    Test 2 is how the image should look:

    0_1513542362157_test 2.png

    Test 1 is how the render came out, with the problem areas circled:

    0_1513542415232_Test 1.png

    Some additional information:

    I use multiple computers to render images. I often render the same or a similar image on multiple machines at the same time. Some times they are a slightly different camera angle, a slightly different material, or they may be the exact same image.

    All computers are running Windows 10. All computers have the latest version of Poser or Queue Manager installed. The material for the pants is below. I can include any other materials you want to know about. All renders are SuperFly.

    0_1513542704712_test material.PNG

    So the problem is that I simply can't rely on Poser to produce consistent render results. Some times the issue is if I render the image within Poser itself (Render menu - Render). Some times the problem occurs if I render it in the queue. Some times the problem is on one machine, and some times it's on another. It's not consistent, and I never know which machine is going to have a problem with which scene.

    I have tried re-installing Poser on some of the problem machines and that has made no difference.

    I used to have a similar problem with Firefly. I could literally render the exact same image the exact same way on the exact same machine, and the lights would look slightly different between the two renders. It is things like this that make me want to give up on Poser.

    I would really appreciate any help any of you can give me with this.



  • I understand how annoying this can be. I demand Repeatibility as well.

    Could this be an issue with Queue Manager? I render multiple camera angles in a scene all the time and have not run into the issue, but I don't use Queue Manager or Background Render.

    If you open the scene and manually start the render on the problem machines, do you experience this problem?


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    My understanding is that, in Firefly specular, or how shiny something is, is a kind of faked reflection for speed. Image maps being used as reflection maps are also a hack for speed. This is because ray traced reflections in Firefly are slow (especially blurred reflections).

    Superfly only does ray traced reflections, all the time, on everything. Specular in Superfly means reflection. That's why the new Poser Ground is a 360 environment - without an environment to reflect, the render will look wrong.

    Materials built for Firefly will probably need to be adjusted for Superfly as the engines work so differently. Consistent materials will help enormously in getting consistent renders.

    With the material above, personally I would load a PhysicalSurface root, plug in the colour map & bump map, set the roughness to 1 & render, then adjust as needed. Most of those nodes just aren't needed in Superfly.



  • @mr_phoenyxx May I offer a critique? No one walks on their heels and toes like that. Find a hallway, or just walk across a room and notice how your feet are positioned. They bend at the ankles and toes. Now try to walk like the man you have in your render and you'll quickly notice how unnatural it is to have your feet positioned like that. I know that wasn't what you were asking, but I hope you don't mind me offering the advice.



  • @eclark1849 said in Any idea why this happens? (Inconsistent render results):

    @mr_phoenyxx May I offer a critique? No one walks on their heels and toes like that. Find a hallway, or just walk across a room and notice how your feet are positioned. They bend at the ankles and toes. Now try to walk like the man you have in your render and you'll quickly notice how unnatural it is to have your feet positioned like that. I know that wasn't what you were asking, but I hope you don't mind me offering the advice.

    Valid point. That's the pose though. I just didn't bother to fix it. :)



  • @caisson said in Any idea why this happens? (Inconsistent render results):

    My understanding is that, in Firefly specular, or how shiny something is, is a kind of faked reflection for speed. Image maps being used as reflection maps are also a hack for speed. This is because ray traced reflections in Firefly are slow (especially blurred reflections).

    Superfly only does ray traced reflections, all the time, on everything. Specular in Superfly means reflection. That's why the new Poser Ground is a 360 environment - without an environment to reflect, the render will look wrong.

    Materials built for Firefly will probably need to be adjusted for Superfly as the engines work so differently. Consistent materials will help enormously in getting consistent renders.

    With the material above, personally I would load a PhysicalSurface root, plug in the colour map & bump map, set the roughness to 1 & render, then adjust as needed. Most of those nodes just aren't needed in Superfly.

    I agree that it is a terrible material setup for Superfly. However, the test render looked fine so I just kept it. And it gives a perfectly fine result on 3 of my 4 machines, yet renders completely wrong on one machine.

    If it was an issue with the material, then it should look like crap on all of them. Or look good on all of them. Not give random results on different computers.



  • @willdial said in Any idea why this happens? (Inconsistent render results):

    I understand how annoying this can be. I demand Repeatibility as well.

    Could this be an issue with Queue Manager? I render multiple camera angles in a scene all the time and have not run into the issue, but I don't use Queue Manager or Background Render.

    If you open the scene and manually start the render on the problem machines, do you experience this problem?

    Well I don't own 4 license of Poser, so I can't test that theory. :)

    It's either a problem with Poser, Queue Manager, or both. The scene I linked in this post renders incorrectly on one remote machine, yet the other two remote machines render it properly. All three of those machines are using Queue Manager. It also renders correctly from within Poser itself.

    Yet I have different scene that renders correctly on all remote machines through Queue Manager, yet does not render correctly from within Poser itself.

    It's absolutely ridiculous!



  • Are you using IDL? If so the results will vary from frame to frame due to differences in starting seeds. Unless you crank the settings to examine each pixel (which will take a very very long time) it samples a small number and sometimes it will be less then correct.


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    @richard60
    He stated that he did SuperFly rendering. So no IDL



  • I've read that sometimes not all the textures transfer through the queue manager. If that's the case, it's possible the image for the reflections isn't coming through on one machine. Don't know if saving images to the local hard drive will help.



  • @Ghostman Superfly has IDL. Idl is simply Poser's version of Global Illumination.


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    @eclark1849 said in Any idea why this happens? (Inconsistent render results):

    @Ghostman Superfly has IDL. Idl is simply Poser's version of Global Illumination.

    SF have it per auto. FF you must select it. That's why I said what I said.



  • @richard60 said in Any idea why this happens? (Inconsistent render results):

    Are you using IDL? If so the results will vary from frame to frame due to differences in starting seeds. Unless you crank the settings to examine each pixel (which will take a very very long time) it samples a small number and sometimes it will be less then correct.

    That would explain the issue I described with Firefly. Thank you! I don't believe, as others have said lower down in this thread, that this is the issue in this case.



  • @redphantom said in Any idea why this happens? (Inconsistent render results):

    I've read that sometimes not all the textures transfer through the queue manager. If that's the case, it's possible the image for the reflections isn't coming through on one machine. Don't know if saving images to the local hard drive will help.

    I don't think that's the problem? I can send the same image to the same machine multiple times and it renders incorrectly every single time. And it renders properly on the other machines every single time.

    The same scene has the same problem on the same machine every time. Yet if I render a different scene, it will be a different computer that has an issue. And every once in a while, a scene will work correctly on all machines.



  • So here are a few tests. Many of you should be able to reproduce them. A few points first though:

    1. While these were all GPU renders, I get the exact same results with CPU renders.
    2. These may not be the best render settings, but the results should be the same if the same settings are used on every render, and that is the main issue here - the results are not the same, even with the same settings.
    3. Just adjust the bucket size if you want to try this test with a CPU instead of a GPU.

    Render settings:

    0_1513617637064_render settings.PNG



  • Step 1: Open Poser to the default starting scene, delete Andy, and load Rex Casual.

    Go to the Render menu and select "Render" in order to render from within Poser:

    0_1513617706631_test 3.png

    Go to the Render Menu and select "Render in Queue". Keep in mind you don't need a second computer for this. It will just render on your main machine, but using the Queue. Make sure you have "Process jobs locally" checked in the Queue Manager menu:

    0_1513617773561_test 4_0001.png



  • Notice the difference in the hairline and in the eyes. Those renders were done on the same computer. One was done from withing Poser and one was done from Queue Manager. I would also like to note that this was done on a brand new computer, purchased less than a week ago, with a fresh install of Poser 11 (updated to the latest version). I would also like to note that I was having these exact same problems and results before purchasing the new computer and re-installing, but I still wanted to point out that this test was done on a fresh install.

    Next, load this test scene that's available on this forum and render from within Poser (Render menu - Render). Make sure you adjust the render settings to reflect what I have above, or try your own render settings to see if you get different results:

    0_1513617951808_test 5.png

    Again, render the same scene in the Queue (even if it's on the same machine):

    0_1513617975454_test 6_0001.png

    Notice the difference in the reflections in the window.



  • Now load Rex Causal into the same scene, which is why I mentioned Rex earlier:

    0_1513618061451_test 7.png

    Closeup of his face, rendered within Poser:

    0_1513618077601_test 8.png

    Closeup rendered in the Queue:

    0_1513618091500_test 9_0001.png

    Notice the lack of reflections in the window again when rendered in Poser, and the terrible hairline when rendered in the Queue. The eyes are also inconsistent.



  • So the eyes look pretty terrible there, so let's try the "Simple Glass" Superfly material that comes with Poser 11.

    In Poser:

    0_1513618224114_test 10.png

    In the Queue:

    0_1513618236008_test 11_0001.png

    I applied "Simple Glass" to the left cornea. Honestly, neither of those results is very good but at least the Queue'd version is better.



  • Lastly, let's try BB's "Tricky Glass" material for Superfly on the left cornea.

    In Poser:

    0_1513618316419_test 12.png

    In the Queue:

    0_1513618327296_test 13_0001.png

    I don't think that is any better. :/


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