I need realistic Poser movie expectations?



  • I have been viewing tutorials on Poser. I see there is a steep learning curve. My question is after I learn to create with poser what is the realistic time it will take to render a movie. I keep hearing about ridiculous render times and I'm not sure I completely understand. I believe my scripts are strong so I just need basic characters and scenes to help tell the story. Comparable maybe to Boondocks. What is a realistic time frame for render to movie?



  • I don't think there is a valid way to answer that question because so much depends on what you want to do.

    How long is a movie? SM advertise that the first few seasons of RWBY were made with Poser (true enough) but the average episode length was 8 minutes. At 30fps, that's 14,400 frames.

    I have had a single render (photo realistic) take over 24 hours. At 24 hours, that's a shade under 39 and a half years to render. I doubt that works for you.

    You can have renders in Firefly take less time, and renders in toon draw take much less time. RWBY is quite toony and low poly, and even so, took a production studio, a dedicated production team and a render farm to produce. That is no different for any other software, although the various game engines offer much faster solutions.

    So... what do you call a 'movie'?

    What image quality are you after?

    How much are you prepared to spend on hardware?



  • You might be looking at the wrong software for that. Boondocks looks like traditional 2D done with something like Toon Boom.

    As soon as you go 3D you add a lot of time and complications.

    For a fully 3D movie, a general rule of thumb, just for 'back of the envelope' calculations is 5 minutes of footage a month.



  • I hadn't really looked at the example posted by the OP. Yes, Boondocks is classic 2D.

    So, Bigo, how confident are you with drawing? Krita does animation, but lacks tweening. Blender's grease pencil has auto tweening but won't be a fully functional 2D animation suite until version 2.8 (due later in 2018). Both are free.

    If drawing isn't your strong point I'd just investigate looking at the various shading options for Poser (assuming you have the program), do test renders, and find which of the ones you like render fast enough to be useful.

    The alternative, if you want a massive learning curve, is to do the animation in Blender as there are several render farm options that are either very cheap or free(ish).



  • If you're looking at toony style renders, the preview renderer may be the way to go. It's much faster than the others, minutes rather than hours for each frame. I do believe RWBY was done that way for at least a few seasons.



  • @piersyf

    Thanks for responding Piersyf,

    The movie will be 22 minute episodes
    RWBY is a good quality I will accept.
    After researching about 1700.00 will build me a great computer to do the job.
    From other replies it seems that Preview Render may be the way to go.
    I have not researched the software yet. I am stepping into a new world here,
    I would appreciate your advice on the best software to purchase as well.
    Thanks



  • @bigo said in I need realistic Poser movie expectations?:

    The movie will be 22 minute episodes

    Hi Bigo.. I'll jump in here with some thoughts, as one who started off with Poser way back in version 5 wanting to do the same as you.

    Rendering is just one part of the job in making anything, you are also going to spend a lot of time in other areas such as the actual animation (which trust me, doing it manually in any software package can be challenging, I have the advantage of having mocap equipment, both facial and body, and even with these tools, it takes a LOT of time). Poser is not the easiest software to keyframe with, having its own particular quirks

    You also have sound design, storyboarding, designing where your cameras will be for shots, lighting, etc. Rendering is done only after all of this is done.. then you have compositing, putting in your sound effects, special effects, etc.

    I wrote an article for Renderosity's magazine, in which I documented the process in creating my video for their contest.. which should give you a bit of an idea [http://renderositymagazine.com/how-to-create-a-contest-winning-animation-cms-1725](link url)

    This video was only around 30 seconds, and it took me several weeks to complete.

    Here's a link to someone that has done what you are contemplating, Tim Vining, who make Star Trek Aurora.. it has some very good points and tips [http://www.auroratrek.com/production.html](link url)

    I don't want to discourage you, because it can be done, but I also don't want you to jump in, get frustrated and then just dump the whole idea. It took me years and thousands of dollars to get to the point where I'm at right now trying to do this by myself. Companies like Rooster Teeth, the makers of RWBY, have teams of people working on their videos, each doing parts of it and it takes a long time. (both Tim and Rooster Teeth use mocap by the way)

    As a new Poser user, this is what I would recommend (for what it is worth).

    Don't try making your 22 minute episodes to start off with, (I'm currently working on 5 to 8 minute segments and even that is so much work that it is almost overwhelming, especially with a full-time job, kids, etc, etc, etc.)
    I'd start with something a lot less ambitious.. 30 seconds, then as you get the hang of it, tackle longer segments. Learn all you can about keyframe animation, then look at mocap.

    Although superfly in Poser and Iray in Daz Studio are pretty decent, they are very slow in rendering, even with multiple machines doing the work.. I would look at Marmoset Toolbag, which I've settled upon as my choice for rendering. It is quick, you can see in realtime all of your lighting and is relatively cheap (190 bucks for an indie license). If you have a decent machine, it can render a very good scene, with realistic lighting, textures, etc, in hours instead of days (my video for Renderosity was done in about 4 hours, even with a dinky gtx 970 video card)

    Let me know if you have any questions.. I'm always happy to help..

    Cheers!
    Bryan



  • Hey Bigo. Yes, RWBY was done with Poser for seasons 1-3. It's worth noting that some of their more intense episodes of season 1 (fight scenes usually) only went for 4 minutes.
    If you're happy with Poser and the preview render you shouldn't need much else in the way of software. I only suggested Krita or Blender because they can do the old cell style 2D animation and they're free.
    I'll bow out of this conversation now because I don't do animations, I only do single renders. I'll leave the floor to others with actually useful info on the animating bit!

    Good luck with your project.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    3D animation is like real film ( or movie) .
    An average scene is only about 4 to 6 seconds long.
    Certainly during a conversation between multiple persons.

    "The trick" in 3D animation is to maintain light and color when switching to different camera views.

    We don't have the "instruments" that real camera men use to measure light and color between different scene setups.

    Go in small scene steps (4 to 6 seconds max at a time), and use a "light" render engine.
    That can be the preview render engine or the FireFly Progressive mode.
    Both give "acceptable results" for animations versus "time required" to render.



  • You either have a lot of money or a lot of experience/time... otherwise forget about it.
    The cheapest animation would probably be around $50/sec. maybe less in Cambodia.
    This would put your 22 min. episode at the entry level of $66,000. Still interested?



  • As @vilters said make your movie in very short segments. I work at a local college in the Media Services department and work with our TV production and movie making instructors, and one of the first things I would recommend is to take a class or two on movie making. This will show how to do a fast productive workflow. My son took the classes several years ago and turned in a 4 minute Music Video, a 30/60/90 second commercials and a 5 minute final project during the 18 week course. In 2011 we used Poser Pro 2012 with two computers and a laptop to render over 21,600 frames along with multiple test sequences. Each frame took under 60 seconds to render (not photo realistic). Unlike some of the people on this forum I do not have any problems making a movie using hundreds of very short scenes and pasting them together. In fact the 4 minute music video had 122 story boards and almost that many PZ3 when we finished. The biggest thing to remember (which they teach in class) is that movies are stories and not reality. Look at a movie where they are crossing a very large desert and you will see they person fading in and out and getting closer to imply a long distance traveled but not take the actual time to do it in.



  • @bigo said in I need realistic Poser movie expectations?:

    I have been viewing tutorials on Poser. I see there is a steep learning curve. My question is after I learn to create with poser what is the realistic time it will take to render a movie. I keep hearing about ridiculous render times and I'm not sure I completely understand. I believe my scripts are strong so I just need basic characters and scenes to help tell the story. Comparable maybe to Boondocks. What is a realistic time frame for render to movie?

    That really, really, really depend on the quality you're looking for.

    If you're looking for photo-realistic ray-traced detail you're really into the minutes to many minutes per frame. Less realism gets you into the range of many seconds per frame.

    On the other hand of the spectrum it's me... I just use Preview mode for all my movies, as I think Poser's preview mode is fantastic, so for a hobby that's really fine. That gets me in sub-second per frame (like 0.10 seconds per frame).

    Now, I think you're looking into a cell shaded kind of thingie, I think the biggest difficulty is not the time to render, but the effort to find a good lights/materials/node setup that will give the sweet anime look. Getting a quality cell shaded look is something I find very difficult, but people managed that. I suspect that after the setup is sorted out movie making is probably in the few seconds per frame range, but other people may speak better about that.



  • @bigo

    This style/quality is 5-10 min. per frame (720p resolution)
    The average of 7.5 min/frame for one minute of animation would be 180 hours or 7.5 days.
    A 22 min. episode would render 24/7 for 165 days on a decent i7 CPU.
    You can see why RWBY style cell shading is so tempting for sensible productions.



  • @prixat

    Well written. Thanks I appreciate the help.



  • Rather than trying to get high quality images out of Poser, I'd suggest using another program to render the scenes. People have had varying success getting Poser figures into Unreal Engine, Unity, blender and iClone. All of those use the GPU to render PBR materials that will often look as good as the materials Firefly and Superfly use. There's even a PBR emulator for Poser to simply the workflow (though it won't give you the speed of a GPU renderer).
    Hopefully SM will look at Unity and Eevee closely the next time they give the viewport some long overdue attention. PBR materials, dynamic tesselation/vector displacement mapping and cascading shadow maps with volumetric lighting would all be on my list. Maybe they could license Marmoset's engine or something similar.

    This was rendered in real-time nearly 5 years ago:



  • @moogaloonie said in I need realistic Poser movie expectations?:

    Hopefully SM will look at Unity and Eevee closely the next time they give the viewport some long overdue attention. PBR materials, dynamic tesselation/vector displacement mapping and cascading shadow maps with volumetric lighting would all be on my list. Maybe they could license Marmoset's engine or something similar.

    Real time 3D animation is the next step. Working in real time (the way the final render will look) is every animator's wet dream!
    Please post samples of Poser to game engine animations when you find some, and not to hijack the OP-ness of this thread, maybe we can start a new one on this subject. Thanks moogaloonie!



  • @moogaloonie
    Thanks, having forums and people like the ones responding to this post is a beautiful thing. I am very grateful for your help.


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