Sticking it to the Poser thieves & freeloaders.



  • @Bobb If they're selling pirated stuff, why not just turn them in and notify the people they're stealing from? Don't protect them. If enough of the people that they're stealing from start coming after them, they'll eventually get the message that what they're doing is more trouble than it's worth.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @eclark1849 People have been doing that for as long as content for Poser has been being made. That's why a lot of content artists have stopped making content or dropped the amount of quality and time spent on the content they do make. For every one pirate that gets taken out 10 or 20 others take their place. And they're never really stopped, they just come back with a different IP. It was a bit easier 10 to 15 years ago to track down individual pirates because the net was a lot smaller, and there were a lot less people on it, even fewer who used or cared about Poser and 3D. These days there are hundreds of times more people and just as many more pirates, virtually impossible to track them all anymore on your own. Trying to talk reason into them is like yelling at a brick wall. They don't care that they're stealing - they think they have the right to it simply because they don't want to pay for it. It's no different than stealing from walmart or anywhere else, but they think it is because it is digital content, and don't care that it still takes time and talent to produce it. And then they have the nerve to complain that the quality of the content they're stealing has dropped over the years. And until laws are passed internationally that goes after pirating, and puts severe consequences on it, equivalent to shoplifting and includes jail time, it's never going to end.



  • @AmbientShade Then maybe they should do what the music industry did and go after the users of pirated content personally.



  • All of this brings to mind another part of the issue and one that has been discussed numerous times on other forums at other sites... the sense of entitlement that people seem to have.

    The pirates and the people using stolen items from warez sites seem to think that they are entitled to everything simply by having been born it seems. They get irate when told to stop using stolen content, and will justify their attitude by saying "this is how the net is supposed to be" (or something to that effect). I've actually seen threads on various forums where a vendor has announced they were closing, and as soon as they closed, threads would be started asking if anyone would be hosting/giving away the content once the vendor was gone. In some cases those vendors that closed were forced into closing by the very people looking to get their products for free once they were gone...

    It's not just that the pirates will think nothing of stealing something... it's that they will now actively attempt to gain said items by forcing vendors out in hopes of gaining them... and it gets a bit worse every year. Announce that you've retired a product and the thieves will go to town because they seem to honestly believe that once an item or vendor is retired, the product(s) become fair game...



  • @eclark1849 said in Sticking it to the Poser thieves & freeloaders.:

    @AmbientShade Then maybe they should do what the music industry did and go after the users of pirated content personally.

    The music industry is vilified for that, too. If you aren't a big player, you have fewer means of recourse.

    There have been a few instances where Ive dealt with pirates directly and effectively. For example, there was a young guy in Quebec who was running a download site off of his parents company's server. I told him he'd better take the site down or I would tell his parents, and he made all sorts of legal threats. So we faxed the company addressed with the parent's names and...well, that site came down ;-)

    I think a really powerful solution is identifying exactly who people are. Anonymity (for all its virtues in countries where people are truly oppressed) is a tool for the worst sort of people to mask their crimes. We had a customer who was uploading our products after paying for them - because of knowing who they were, we were able to identify who was doing the uploading. A warning was given and it stopped. Unfortunately, if you sell through a brokerage you do not have the tools to do that - only the brokerage does.



  • @meshbox People's perceptions are often skewed. That's why people vilified the music industry. People thought they have deep pockets and thought they wouldn't notice if soeone just download one song. The 3d industry's pockets aren't that deep and it is made up more of individuals than corporations.



  • I have a question about ShareCG, since it's been mentioned.

    Several years ago on ShareCG, there was an uploader called "Dalmatiner". This guy uploaded a bunch of really nice automotive models I'd never seen before. They were well-made. They even had his name on the license plates. So nice of him to upload and share with the community!

    ...Except they weren't his work. At all. (I have a feeling this is who @meshbox is referring to, yes?)

    I was one of the people who was a total sucker and downloaded from this jackass. Eventually I found out about his "sharing" and that he'd been reported and then he disappeared. As for me, I felt really, really stupid -- and really ____ing angry at being duped. I deleted everything I could remember downloading from him from ShareCG.

    So I have a question for the content creators.

    How does the average joe know what he's getting from ShareCG?

    I thought the "this model is too nice to give away" rule of thumb was a good one, but there are other people who legitimately make their own stuff and kindly give it away for free on that site. Two people that come to mind are Pedro Caparros and the late Neil Wilson (RIP). @theschell has given away props there, too. They have created some really nice stuff that is nice enough to be sold for money. So that makes "too nice to give away" not really a great way to be sure.

    How do I protect myself from being tricked by weirdos like Dalmatiner?



  • @eclark1849 said in Sticking it to the Poser thieves & freeloaders.:

    @Bobb If they're selling pirated stuff, why not just turn them in and notify the people they're stealing from?

    I have....repeatedly. Because of the lightning response by 'Doc' over at Render-perverted-but-fun-otica, their stuff gets taken down instantly. They don't even bother posting cgBytes or R'otica stuff since they know it'll get taken down in seconds. They occasionally lament about this.

    However, I've reported many, many (many, many, many, ad nauseum) times to this place and Daz3D and SM, and none of them appear to do a damned blessed thing about it. It's so simple to send a DMCA take down notice to KAT, or the file sharing service (Rapidshare, OBoom, etc) but they don't bother. I guess they don't care? They make a big deal about piracy but don't actually do a thing about it...ARE YOU LISTENING RENDEROSITY!? Right now there are hundreds of files from here and Daz3D being shared on KAT. Seeing some actions a few days ago I was hopeful that someone here (or a Daz3D) had finally gotten off their butts....but it wasn't so. Things are back to normal and the stealing goes on unabated.

    I'm worried that content artists while stop making items for me to play with because seeing their stuff stolen is such and insult and kick in the crotch. I'm told that this is what drove 9mbi to close up shop. I have stuff I'd like to sell too but as long as the kids, punks, thieves, and freeloaders continue to treat downloading as a right, it's staying on my hard drive (and shared with a few Poser friends).



  • @James_in_3D said in Sticking it to the Poser thieves & freeloaders.:

    How do I protect myself from being tricked by weirdos like Dalmatiner?

    That's a great example as he was the one that reposted my trailer model. Users (and I believe you did) pointed out that he was distributing our model, so we actively pursued its removal and his removal from ShareCG.

    Free sites that allow almost near anonymity cannot be trusted at all. Download something from a free and open site is like practicing unprotected sex. The person who uploaded what they thought was a free model, that they didn't create, doesn't know if it was a free model to begin with.

    The solution is, don't trust these sites at all. Get free models from reputable vendors who clearly state that they made the model. If you don't get it directly from them, then get it from a site in which they are actively vending. The reason for that is that (for example, Content Paradise) is that the site has vetted the vendor, including financial / tax related information. If they do not actively vend then don't trust it.

    So lets compare with a free slice of pizza.

    Imagine, for example, you are walking down the street, and an unkempt homeless person appears from around the corner, walks up to you and hands you a slice of pizza. The slice of pizza looks quite good and clean, and its still nice and warm. But you don't know of any pizza places in the area. Compare that to walking near a vendor display in Costco, where a vendor is handing out slices of pizza. They are wearing official vendor clothing, and the display is sturdy and substantial (it took some time to set it up), and they have one of those toaster ovens where they are heating up slices. Now, both slices of pizzas appear EXACTLY the same - and you are hungry. Would you trust both of them equally?


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @James_in_3D said in Sticking it to the Poser thieves & freeloaders.:

    I have a question about ShareCG, since it's been mentioned.
    ...
    How do I protect myself from being tricked by weirdos like Dalmatiner?

    Whether it's from a freeware site like ShareCG or a high $$ premium site, there's really no way to know for sure until one of the models gets reported. That's what we were saying earlier, about buying models from just about anywhere, because stolen models are all over the place - free and premium - and even the site owners have no way of knowing 100% whether the content artists are posting their own models or just stealing and reposting from somewhere else. And once someone gets busted for one model, chances are pretty high that most, if not all, of their other content is questionable too.

    There are some ways to guard against it tho. Mostly its just being familiar with the content artists that you're downloading from. If they have a blog or website that shows their work, or they post regularly to forums like this, or you have a way of developing some kind of relationship with them as a fan or follower of their work, then all of that helps diminish the chances that you're going to get stolen content from them, especially if you can see the development of that model or similar work.

    But most content out there is not pirated. It's just that it's not difficult to come across a lot that is. Sometimes you can spot it simply by frequenting a lot of sites and forums and being familiar with a lot of the content artists and their work.



  • Thanks for the replies, @meshbox and @AmbientShade!

    I appreciate what you're saying and I see the points you're both making.

    That all was several years ago and I'm more familiar now with who makes what kind of product. At the time I wasn't familiar with Meshbox products, so I didn't immediately recognize them as being from anywhere else. It wasn't until I saw comments on the various download pages that I realized we'd all been had.

    As things stand with ShareCG now, I have a select few artists there whose uploads I follow: Pedro Caparros, Neil Wilson (sadly, no longer), and Birdman, among a few others. I tend to wait a while after someone completely new shows up with something cool that I've never seen before, just to see if they turn out to be another nut job like Dalmatiner. I think ShareCG was founded with good intentions, but there is so much stuff there now that it must be a nightmare to even begin to try to curate all of it.

    As a side note, Dalmatiner reappeared 8-10 months ago or so, under a different name: 101Doberman. Oh ho ho, so clever with this new name... Dalmatiner = Dalmatian... 101 Doberman... Sheesh. He had uploaded a Tucker sedan and a rally car of some kind to Rendo's freebies. I reported him as soon as I recognized who he was. I have to say that I don't understand what he is actually seeking to accomplish by doing this. It's freaking weird. I mean, he put his name on the items he uploaded. Narcissistic much?

    Anyway, thanks for the input!



  • I just saw a report about Anonymous hacking into large finance-related organisations, and the photo headline showed someone wearing that infamous mask and holding up a placard reading: Sharing Is Not Stealing. Ya, OK, that about sums up the mentality. Oh boy....



  • That anonymity mentioned by meshbox is a huge issue in and of itself... the low-life punks that frequent many corners of the 'net behave in ways that would get them hurt or arrested were they to do it on a public street rather than online. They hide behind the anonymity, and justify it by claiming that it's how the net is and has always been. They will then act as trolls in the forums to silence anyone who speaks out against it by getting threads closed and users banned... If they were to make the sorts of demands or to steal like they do from us in a real store they'd get kicked out, banned and likely arrested, and if they insulted people in r/l as they often do in the forums someone would eventually kick their teeth in. The way the 'net in general is handled these days virtually ensures that you can do as you please without ever having to face the consequences of your actions...



  • @theschell said in Sticking it to the Poser thieves & freeloaders.:

    That anonymity mentioned by meshbox is a huge issue in and of itself... the low-life punks that frequent many corners of the 'net behave in ways that would get them hurt or arrested were they to do it on a public street rather than online. They hide behind the anonymity, and justify it by claiming that it's how the net is and has always been. They will then act as trolls in the forums to silence anyone who speaks out against it by getting threads closed and users banned... If they were to make the sorts of demands or to steal like they do from us in a real store they'd get kicked out, banned and likely arrested, and if they insulted people in r/l as they often do in the forums someone would eventually kick their teeth in. The way the 'net in general is handled these days virtually ensures that you can do as you please without ever having to face the consequences of your actions...

    It's unfortunate, but the internet is essentially the wild west frontier. It's full of bandits, thieves, and thugs -- who are only bold because of the factor of internet anonymity.

    Sure there are good Sheriffs around, as well as "honest townsfolk", and even well-meaning vigilantes (though internet vigilanteism is a danger in itself), but it's pretty much a gongshow where the inmates are running the asylum and it's impossible to patrol or control all of it.

    Yes, a lot of these "keyboard warriors" would likely have their asses handed to them if they tried their online actions in real life.

    Then again, you really have to wonder if they're as sociopathic in real life as they are online...which is a disturbing thought.



  • @James_in_3D said in Sticking it to the Poser thieves & freeloaders.:

    I have a question about ShareCG, since it's been mentioned.

    Several years ago on ShareCG, there was an uploader called "Dalmatiner". This guy uploaded a bunch of really nice automotive models I'd never seen before. They were well-made. They even had his name on the license plates. So nice of him to upload and share with the community!

    ...Except they weren't his work. At all. (I have a feeling this is who @meshbox is referring to, yes?)
    [...]
    How do I protect myself from being tricked by weirdos like Dalmatiner?

    I noted at the time over at ShareCG that I suspected Dalmatiner was Poserizing meshes that he downloaded from Google 3DWarehouse, as I had found some of his Portfolio could be downloaded from there. At that time, those meshes were distributed under practically a Public Domain license, except you couldn't use them to set up your own mapping service or 3DWarehouse, IIRC. Now that Sketchup as been sold to Trimble, the license is slightly now more restrictive, but you can still distribute modified versions.

    So, it sort of moves James' equation up the food chain. The best protection (aside from modeling everything yourself) is not to use freebies in commercial renders unless they are obtained from an established commercial Broker. That way one might be protected, at least in the US, under the Good Faith Doctrine of the Uniform Commercial Code.. Of course, the Good Faith Doctrine applies to purchased physical goods; it is unclear how it would apply to the purchase of licenses....



  • @James_in_3D

    Then again, you really have to wonder if they're as sociopathic in real life as they are online...which is a disturbing thought.

    After hanging around in KAT for several years (and still there under a new name registered through their new TOR capabilities) I've read a lot of comments and followed endless conversations. I'm quite sure that they're mostly young and somewhat uneducated. They whine about not being able to afford the content because they're broke. They have no real concept of the grown-up working world and definitely feel entitled to 'free'...er, stolen content. As they upload more they climb their goofy little social ladder in the community and gain status. Sociopathic might be a bit strong, I see them as having little accomplishments in their real lives and try to fill the void by becoming a "Super Amazing Excellent Really-Big-C**K Uploader!". Wow!

    I've pointed out repeatedly that they can always make their own items, an offer that is met with stony silence. What?...spend hundreds of hours learning things?....gain a real sense of accomplishment? I almost laughed out loud when some kid mentioned (in reply to a comment I'd made about possibly selling my items on CgBytes) that he'd probably be pissed too if he saw items he made being shared on KAT. Don't they see the hypocrisy of what they do or the faulty logic they use to justify their actions?



  • @wandw I distribute my freebies with the understanding that it is okay to use them in commercial or non commercials renders, and the only real restrictions I place on them is that you can't claim they're yours and redistribute them. But I don't do a lot of freebies anymore. Kind of a shame really, I have a LOT of stuff on my hard drive because I'm constantly modeling stuff.



  • @Bobb said in [Sticking it to the Poser thieves & freeloaders.]...

    I've been badgering all the main vendor sites to get off their darned butts and start sending out takedown notices to the torrent sites for years. Hopefully this will continue. It would also be nice if the sites got together and lobbied the US Department of Trade to ask the Vietnamese government to arrest that sleazy scumbag, Phougdzu, in Vietnam and get all her sites taken down.

    Bob

    The main, legitimate, content sites do try. Vendors/creators do try. But, there are fifty-eleven people who will re-up things as soon as they're taken down. It's like playing Internet Whack-a-Mole.

    I used to alert distributors whenever I saw something in my constant search for legitimate freebies. It just got to be too much, even for just a "concerned netizen."

    Want to really stir the pot? Find something on one of these sites that uses a Disney product... See here: https://thewaltdisneycompany.com/contact-us/

    Disney grows their own Copyright/Trademark attorneys on both sides of the U.S. for around-the-clock readiness. I imagine a giant cube-farm of onsite specialists and a huge phone-bank connected directly to legal firms all around the country. Alerting Disney is like telling Vikings that there's an unarmed village that might have rich-stuffs in it...



  • @morkonan said in Sticking it to the Poser thieves & freeloaders.:

    Disney grows their own Copyright/Trademark attorneys on both sides of the U.S. for around-the-clock readiness. I imagine a giant cube-farm of onsite specialists and a huge phone-bank connected directly to legal firms all around the country. Alerting Disney is like telling Vikings that there's an unarmed village that might have rich-stuffs in it...

    This tactic works. Adobe is also pretty vehement too.



  • @AmbientShade said in Sticking it to the Poser thieves & freeloaders.:
    ...and even the site owners have no way of knowing 100% whether the content artists are posting their own models or just stealing and reposting from somewhere else. And once someone gets busted for one model, chances are pretty high that most, if not all, of their other content is questionable too.

    This is why I find the BMW vs Turbosquid scandal interesting.

    If a 'network provider' goes through the process of interacting with a model (for testing purposes, for example), it is hard for them to claim they are simply a network provider. They've had the opportunity to touch the model and validate it.

    A network provider that doesn't do any due diligence is no better than the free pizza guy I mentioned. We've all heard of the infamous 4chan, where links appear all the time pirated stuff (and if that idea excites you, know that links often appear there that lead directly to Russian ransomeware traps ). Most free sites are no better and can be easily tricked because they have very poor security practices.

    A premium site that has an established business relationship with a vendor adds a layer of safety, especially if that vendor is an established business. Here is what I look for:

    • Is the vendor a business or an individual? If individual, do they have any validating relationships?
    • Does the vendor try to hide their identity or contact information?
    • Does the vendor do crazy, rude things on the internet?

    No relationship is foolproof, but you can look out for yourself and your clients.

    Consider this - you take several thousands of dollars from a client to produce a professional work. In turn, that becomes a very expensive production, like a documentary. Then shortly after it is released, your client gets a C&D letter because you used some 'freebie' you found that wasn't being legally distributed. I would never put my client or customer in that position.