Where should Poser's Geometry files go... and why?



  • Okay, so the reason I'm starting this thread is due to a thread over at the Hivewire forums regarding where Poser stores it's geometry files. Truthfully, I never understood why Poser made the change in the first place of storing the files in the character folders along with the obj files. So here's the thing. Hivewire wants people to store the files in the geometry folders instead when placing product in their store to sell. Now, we could simply edit the CR2 files to point to the obj files in the Geometry folder, or Poser could just change where it stores the obj files and have the CR2 point to them when first created, then content creators wouldn't have to.

    So what was the deal with that change anyway, and can you guys change it back?



  • I could be way off here, but from what I understand, Poser does not 'create' geometry. I suspect that since Poser's runtime structure no longer needs things to be in specific folders has allowed people to put geometry in the character folder and point to it there with the .cr2. You may also note that Poser still has a geometry folder in the runtime, and all my old products work just fine.
    In short, I don't think it is 'necessary', just an option, to put geometry in the character folder. Poser will look for geometry wherever the .cr2 tells it to look. Hivewire are probably asking vendors to do it for purpose of legacy knowledge of buyers (understanding that when they open the package and don't see a geometry folder they haven't been ripped).
    In my own structure I leave geometry in the geometry folder because things like cross dresser find things easier that way (I don't have to re-write the .cr2). Textures go in textures, but everything else I put in the character folder; all associated props, material options (Material and Pose), morphs... so that when I open the item I can see everything I have that is associated with it. I doubt I'd be able to sell anything that way, despite what I consider to be the end user convenience.



  • I've just had a look at my Poser 6 runtime. All the older character OBJs from Poser 5 (Don/Judy) and earlier are in the Runtime/Geometries folder, but the Poser 6 (James/Jessi/Ben/Kate) OBJs are in the Runtime/Character subfolders.

    So the 'change' isn't a recent one - it goes back to Poser 6.

    Maybe it was something to do with PMD files ? There's no PMD files for the Poser 5 and earlier figures, but the Poser 6 figures have PMD files co-located in the subfolders with the CR2 and OBJ.



  • @piersyf As I understand it, they want the content creator to edit the CR2 to point to the obj file in the geometry folder. That doesn't sound like an "option". Also, again from what I've seen, Poser creates a new object file in the set up room when you're rigging it as a figure, and stores it in the character library with the new CR2 files. Want to provide options? have the set up room ask where we want the obj files stored.



  • Like I said, could be way off, and probably was. I haven't rigged anything inside Poser to notice where anything goes. You've probably already seen it, but this might be of interest (although probably no actual help)
    http://brian-the-techie.blogspot.com.au/2013/03/how-to-rig-poser-prop.html



  • I prefer that it be left exactly as is.

    I don't want Poser to save a file OVER my object file under any circumstance. Why? Because if Poser does something screwy (have you ever used Poser grouping??) then my original object file is just GONE and I have to start over at the step of exporting it from the modeler. If I have done grouping outside Poser (AutoGroup Editor) all that meticulous grouping is gone and has to be re-done.

    No, let me have control of the object file in the CR2. It's a simple process to change it, even manually and if you have Netherworks Creator's Toybox, you can do it without ever leaving Poser.

    I say leave this one alone.



  • I think the original set-up of the Poser Runtime with dedicated folders for Geometry, textures and library files reflect the original situaiton where Poser did not do anything active at all with geometry. It was easiest to keep these 'static' items in some central location.
    Over time geometry manipulation tools were added. Typical example is the setup room which made its entry in Poser 5, which influenced the grouping. I only stepped in at Poser 5, but AFAIK the grouping tool came also with Poser 5.
    If dedicated Geometry is produced 'on the fly', it is better to keep it together with the other files they work with. For the computer it makes no sense to put documents with extension '.obj' in a folder only because they have extension .obj. For a human who wants to keep things tidy it is much easier when all files that belong together are in one folder.


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    @3dcheapskate said in Where should Poser's Geometry files go... and why?:

    Maybe it was something to do with PMD files ? There's no PMD files for the Poser 5 and earlier figures, but the Poser 6 figures have PMD files co-located in the subfolders with the CR2 and OBJ.

    PMD files still work with the figure geometry stored in the geometries folder and the pmd files stored in the pose or characters folder. That may not have been the case before, I can't say for sure, but they work now, and in PP2014.

    I agree with Glitterati, due to the way Poser currently saves figures back to the library - I'd rather move the figure to the geometries folder and edit the cr2 myself in order to avoid possible corruption. It takes all of 2 minutes even doing it manually.



  • One reason to put the .obj files in the geometry folder vs inside the library folder anywhere, is scene files. a pz3 file contains the path to the obj file. if your libraries are modified by grouping etc after the creation of the scene file, it will not be able to find it. This is also true for .pmd files

    Bill



  • What it boils down to is we need some sort of vault that keeps track of installations, dependencies and references.



  • @piersyf said in Where should Poser's Geometry files go... and why?:

    I could be way off here, but from what I understand, Poser does not 'create' geometry.

    You're only half right. Poser won't make a character out of thin air or even allow you to but, if you're creating a character from scratch and rigging it in Poser, when you save to the library, the OBJ saved is not the OBJ you loaded into the scene to start off with. You'll need to direct the CR2 to your original OBJ or Poser will use the OBJ it made, which will be broken up at the joints. Alternatively, if you haven't started morphing or weight mapping yet, you can simply weld the OBJ Poser saved out in a program like UVMapper Pro. Thus avoiding the need to redirect the CR2 to a pre-grouped figure.

    -T.

    Edit: I should mention that the OBJ Poser makes, while broken at the joints, is not usually visibly broken inside Poser, only in external applications when morphing.



  • @Teyon I was beginning to see that from the replies already, but thanks for the clarification, especially the last bit about broken joints if exporting out again.



  • @Teyon said in Where should Poser's Geometry files go... and why?:

    @piersyf said in Where should Poser's Geometry files go... and why?:

    I could be way off here, but from what I understand, Poser does not 'create' geometry.

    You're only half right. Poser won't make a character out of thin air or even allow you to but, if you're creating a character from scratch and rigging it in Poser, when you save to the library, the OBJ saved is not the OBJ you loaded into the scene to start off with. You'll need to direct the CR2 to your original OBJ or Poser will use the OBJ it made, which will be broken up at the joints. Alternatively, if you haven't started morphing or weight mapping yet, you can simply weld the OBJ Poser saved out in a program like UVMapper Pro. Thus avoiding the need to redirect the CR2 to a pre-grouped figure.

    -T.

    Doesn't address the original problem I asked about though. Most stores want their vendors to have a geometry folder with the object files stored there, not in the character folder with the CR2 file. If you move that OBJ file into the geometry folder like they want, you're STILL going to have to redirect the CR2 file to point to where you've stored the OBJ file anyway. All I'm saying is that Poser wants it done their way, the stores want it done their way, and the content creators are stuck in the middle. I want Poser and.or the vendors to hash out a standard for the CC to live by. I don't think that's asking too much, is it?



  • @eclark1849 Personal Opinion time:

    Well let's look at it like this then, and I'm not trying to purposefully point fingers but if the App is doing it a certain way by default, why are brokerages making their vendors do something contrary? I get that Poser started off with things a certain way but time has passed and things have changed. Be open to change or be left behind is how I look at it. The fact that brokerages aren't willing to do that is part of the overarching problem I have with the Poser community and their reluctance to let go of old things (content in particular). Things change for a reason - usually out of need or to make things easier. Insisting things stay the same or supports old ideas is only going to hold up progress in the long run. This query about geometry placement being one of them.

    That opinion aside, the question, I feel, is pointless right now. If you're a vendor and you're selling your content at a site and they have a particular way they want you to do it, you have to do it that way until you convince THEM there's a better way. It's messed up and tedious and not vendor friendly but it's your choice to sell there. There are other avenues for sale. Gumroad, Turbosquid, etc. Other Poser specific venues too I'm sure. So yeah, if you don't like the way something is done somewhere and that place is counting on your buck to stay alive, I say get a few like minded souls and voice your opinion to them. In terms of the application, it's pretty clear Poser doesn't care where the geometry is as long as the CR2 knows about it. So any restriction is coming from a broker and at that point you should ask them why.

    End of personal opinion.

    All that said, if it's something enough people want done, there may be a discussion internally about changing it back and what all that may screw up and how we'll need to fix it but that doesn't seem to be the case just yet.


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    In this regard the stores are right. Geometry belongs in the geometries folder. Thats what it's there for. That's where it was being stored for years. It keeps things organized. But at the same time I'd rather move the geometry to the geometries folder myself, until Poser is fixed so that it stops mangling obj files.



  • @Teyon another personal opinion:
    There are only two logical ways, and both more or less absolute:

    1. all files go to library folders — geometries, textures, morphs and so on... May be in lightweight container (aka .blend :) ) it's old way to organize projects in many applications.
    2. Only some type of links allowed in libraries folders. Not xx2, not scripts, not anything oelse — links only. And all real information in some kind of data folder(s).
      Halfway as now produce many not troubles but annoyances. Very personal opinion.


  • @AmbientShade said in Where should Poser's Geometry files go... and why?:

    I agree with Glitterati, due to the way Poser currently saves figures back to the library - I'd rather move the figure to the geometries folder and edit the cr2 myself in order to avoid possible corruption. It takes all of 2 minutes even doing it manually.

    So as the OP about this in Hivewire, one of the problems with how Poser does things (at least for newer content creators like me) is that it's very unclear what it is doing. You're absolutely right that it's not hard to edit the cr2. Part of the reason I asked the original question as Hivewire, was I had assumed obj files had to be in the geometries folder, and suddenly discovered that the figures I was trying to create weren't referencing the files there, but had made their own geometry files and were using those. I think having Poser ask you where you want the geometry file to go would be great, because at least then when you are creating a figure, you know and can control what's happening.

    I'm actually wondering now, when I've saved refits of clothing I've made for my own use, did those cr2s duplicate the geometry of the original item (probably) or are they referencing that geometry? It's also something that if it's covered in the Poser manual, is not in an obvious place (I've check in the sections under the library and in the appendix section on obj files).

    @Teyon said in Where should Poser's Geometry files go... and why?:

    @piersyf said in Where should Poser's Geometry files go... and why?:

    I could be way off here, but from what I understand, Poser does not 'create' geometry.

    You're only half right. Poser won't make a character out of thin air or even allow you to but, if you're creating a character from scratch and rigging it in Poser, when you save to the library, the OBJ saved is not the OBJ you loaded into the scene to start off with. You'll need to direct the CR2 to your original OBJ or Poser will use the OBJ it made, which will be broken up at the joints.

    Also, I've learned recently that with props, it does create geometry. . . sort of. If you import an .obj into Poser and then save it as a prop, the .pp2 file doesn't default to referencing the .obj file, it actually saves the geometry into itself. You have to hand edit out the new geometry in the .pp2 file and a link to the .obj file.

    @AmbientShade said in Where should Poser's Geometry files go... and why?:

    In this regard the stores are right. Geometry belongs in the geometries folder. Thats what it's there for. That's where it was being stored for years. It keeps things organized. But at the same time I'd rather move the geometry to the geometries folder myself, until Poser is fixed so that it stops mangling obj files.

    I agree the store are right, at least if you are trying to sell content. Some people only use content in an 'out of the box' manner, meaning that they never try to make it do more than it's original design. But lots of people want to be able to tinker with things for their own use. Not only that, but some DS users, and quite happy to buy 'Poser' content knowing that with a little tweaking they can make it work in DS, (and vice versa, I've bought DS only content if I could tell by looking at the provided files that with some work I could make it work in Poser). So you are more likely to sell to those people if they know they can get to the .obj file and tinker with it.


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    @gadgetgirl
    The .cr2 isn't making the geometry. Poser is duplicating the geometry in your scene and saving it to the character folder along with the .cr2. It also changes the file reference in the .cr2 to reference that newly duplicated .obj file.

    I have found that if you are working on an existing .cr2 that you have already modified to reference the .obj in the geometries folder, sometimes Poser will keep the reference in the .cr2 in tact and does not spawn a new .obj file at save, while other times it will change it to reference the duplicated .obj that it saves to the character folder along with the new saved copy of the .cr2. It seems to be random but I'm sure there is probably something specific during the editing of the figure that triggers it, I just haven't figured out exactly what that trigger is yet.

    When you're creating cusom fit clothing in the fitting room, once you go back to the pose room, you'll have a duplicate version of the original .obj that the new figure was created from. That is what gets saved to the library when you save the .cr2. But that .obj will not be welded so you'll need to edit it in an external app to weld all the groups back together and remove duplicate vertices if you intend on redistributing it. It also has to be done if you intend the file to be a poser unimesh. Even though Poser rewelds the groups when it is brought back into the scene from the library, it won't hold the unimesh skinning unless the base .obj in the library is welded. It can also cause issues with weightmaps and morphs, so the best bet is to take it into a modeler and re-weld it, and then you'll probably have to recreate all your groups.

    An .obj file can really be stored anywhere in the runtime that you want it to be stored, as long as the .cr2 file references it correctly. By default Poser saves it to the character folder, along with the cr2 and any .pmd files it generates, if you are creating morphs.

    At one point some of the stores required geometry to be stripped from the .pp2 files but I'm not sure if that is still enforced or not.



  • @AmbientShade Any trip into the Setup Room or the Fitting Room will result in an object file saved with the CR2 and Poser linking to that object.

    When I rig, once out of the fitting room, setting materials and saving, I run Creator's Toybox on the file and re-point to my original object, then delete the Poser created one.


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    @Glitterati3D Yes, those are definites. But it also happens even without entering those rooms. It's happened with me on several occasions. Sometimes it keeps the reference to my master obj that i've stored in the geometries folder, other times it creates a new one. For example, when I'm working on refining joints with the joint editor. That has to be done in the pose room. I don't go into the setup room for that, but it can still cause my cr2 to get rerouted back to a duplicate obj in the character folder, but sometimes it doesn't.

    I don't use the toybox script, so I'm talking purely from poser's built-in functions. I change my file references manually in notepad++.