Poser has lost the Content Wars...


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @nagra_00_ said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    @wimvdb said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    Most DS props at daz do work in Poser. You just sometimes need to adjust some materials.
    Here is a test render of Urban Sprawl 3
    0_1466287640172_us31.jpg

    Just a short side note…

    @wimvdb: You may want to apply the attached shader to the roads of US3. Works pretty well for close up and long distant renders. Works on all blocks.

    Here a fast test render to give you an impression (Firefly IDL):
    0_1466423368770_US3Block234 Scene IDL.jpg

    0_1466423470435_US3RoadShader4_mz5.txt

    Thanks!


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @rg5a I can not tell you. Many may go to DAZ, many just stop to create because get to much frustrated.

    We have since 2 months two Environments ready to send to a betatest, but still ask our selfes where. RDNA where we sell before is closed, DAZ ....Rendero is not really a good choce nowadays,. HW? CGBytes? Where are all the Poser customer?



  • @Ladonna As a vendor, the question for me when deciding where to place a product is - where will I NOT get buried under more DS products.

    It doesn't matter how good a product is if your customers can't find it no matter how hard they look because it's buried in yet more near porn poses, slutwear and junk.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @Glitterati3D You are right. At first, we are Poser user and lover. It would be not a problem to adapt our stuff in DS. But Didier refuse it.
    He is a hardcore Poser lover :) Like me. I use Poser since version 4 and love it.
    For now, we work on a few light sets, Environments which makes Poser Superfly a bit more easy for people. Essential, basic props with shader and materials which can be adapted on another surface. Lights for Portrait and huge Scenes with cameras etc..


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @rg5a said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    @Ladonna said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    I don't think it is the lack of content, It is more the way Poser and Poserstuff get promoted.
    Look over DAZ, aggressive promotion with really fantastic deals.

    That is partly true. "Partly" because you only see Daz stuff if you actively go there, so it's not that aggressive. But I agree Poser stuff usually gets released secretly in a handful of confidential shops, and you have to really search for it to notice it.

    But then again, there is also a basic problem of quantity. Apparently since yesterday (or so) Daz has released three new sceneries and a prop, all quite good-looking at first glance, all Studio-only.
    How many Poser sceneries and props have been released since yesterday (or so) in all the existing Poser shops?...

    Well, It is true, DAZ release a lot. But it is always quality? Or goes many times quantity over quality. They have a few vendors who are good. But they release a lot of crap also.



  • @Glitterati3D said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    It doesn't matter how good a product is if your customers can't find it no matter how hard they look because it's buried in yet more near porn poses, slutwear and junk.

    Damn, do I ever agree with that statement. What I wouldn't give for some high quality normal sneakers and sandals for my Poser figures (Ana/Miki/Pauline) instead of being bombarded with 6 inch heels with f'n spikes on them. I've bought regular sneakers made for v4 just so I can convert them but it takes forever for me to figure out what to do and they never come out right at all, especially in that fitting room thing that I can't figure out... it's just a giant PITA that I have to jump through all these hoops and in the end it never works out.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @johndoe641 and others. "The Fitting room".

    Some years ago, I invented the basics for the fitting room and wrote a "how to" document to SM. (That document was also posted at RDNA at the time)
    Steve Cooper wrote the specs, and the Poser team coded it.
    They did a great Job, and provided a lot more fine tuning tools then initially asked for. A great piece of software they put together, but like all rooms, there is a learning curve.

    Now that everybody uses Blender ( or equivalent ) the process of "refitting" one item for one figure to other figures has become a LOT simpler then in the years "back then".

    Best thing to do these days is to do a pré-fitting in Blender, ( or equivalent that maintains vertex order ) and then use the Setup or the Fitting room to transfer the bones.

    I briefly use the fitting room at the end of this video.

    Open proposal to everybody that has questions about the fitting room?
    Please provide a copyright free obj file that gives you trouble, and I will make a video using your obj file.
    tony.vilters@telenet.be

    There is another proposal in the making, and an initial txt has been send to SM as well. Another clothing system for Poser.
    "Does you Jacket put you on? Or do you put on your Jacket?"



  • As long Poser doesn’t support “DUF“ files without using DSON poser, I’m pretty sure Poser will lost the content war. All the new environments like Urban sprawl 3, Jackson Filed and so on, doesn’t work in Poser if not converted. As shown in a few pictures here there is a way to get them to work (I’ve done it with Jackson Field with a lot of post work and time) but that should not the right way! - If I pay a lot of money, - I don’t like to sit down for hours doing post work to get scenery to work.
    Same for the figures, I would like to use the Genesis 3 figures without any “get arounds” to make them working in Poser, I don’t like to fix Genesis 2 Figures by may self if I pay a lot for a software, I don’t like to get 3rd party tools to make things possible.
    If Duf file are state of art for Content, the software should be possible to work with it
    The really only thing that’s keeps me off from using DAZ Studio is the for me bad handling and interface
    Finally I won’t buy Poser 11 until those things are possible without any “get around”
    I still work with Poser 2014 pro and hope for a possibility to use DUF files without any importer maybe in poser 12



  • @vilters
    Another clothng system is key.
    My bet would be a 'player' version of Marvelous Designer. just like in a shop, fit on what is on the rack. This could be an add-on like for example Snarley's subdivider was.
    If you want tailor made garments or modifications go to a tailor (=someone who owns Marvelous Designer or CLO3DAtelier).

    My experience is that the fitting to an avatar does not take more time than loading a conformer, but the result of course is WAY better.



  • @wfbp1w Err, can you name any other 3D software that uses .duf files natively (with no 'get around'), to support your 'state of the art' claim? Not saying there aren't any, I just don't know of them. As far as I'm aware .duf is Studio only.



  • @piersyf
    No I can’t, but I think most of the figures around like Genesis 1, 2 and specially 3 use DUF, a lot of scenery use DUF and yes it’s unfortunately for DAZ only or you have to convert it with in general a lot of work. I said State of art because the most new stuff is created in DUF (and not all is really good), maybe there is other content store but where? I think the most people get to Rendo or DAZ store



  • @piersyf LOL, piersyf, logic doesn't apply. Good point though.



  • @rg5a said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    Well, I was there about 20 minutes ago. Their "newest" page is mostly about figure accessories (clothing and stuff) I don't care about. Please be so kind to find me there a nice ship/boat for a summer vacation scene at Hivewire...

    I encourage you to search the 11 pages of Meshbox Design products on Content Paradise. or over on Mirye Store. Lots of buildings, cars, ships, spacecraft and more in a vast variety of themes (you'll also find a few odd ball products like backgrounds, audio for animation and more). We've create hundreds of models over the years for Poser and other platforms.

    There are other great producers of buildings on CP such as Vanishing Point, Rodi Design and more.

    Honestly speaking, neither Poser or DAZ Studio are ideal for large scenes. I prefer Poser for a number of reasons, including their positioning as a part of a workflow rather than a delivery system for character content.



  • You can find my ships, aircraft and a number of my sci-fi creations under "theschell" through Vanishing Point over in the Content Paradise market... I do WW2 ships, Vietnam era Aircraft and the like...



  • @Glitterati3D Yeah, I am logical critter... academic researcher, lecturer. To my mind 'state of the art' means it can do something other systems cannot. Frankly I don't see .duf files doing anything other than linking .obj to textures and morphs, which is no more state of the art than python, or any other similar scripts.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    The Fitting room.

    Some brave souls send some files (and or links) to check clothing that gave them trouble in the fitting room.

    The fitting room needs only one simple thing to function : A properly grouped and welded obj file.

    When you feed it unwelded parts, or obj files with lost vertex order, the end user will get in trouble when trying to do a refit to another figure.

    I posted some "do's and don'ts" at Renderosity back in the days when the Fitting room was new.

    • Only feed properly grouped and welded obj files into the fitting room.
    • Check that the donor and the goal have the same bone / group setup.

    Quality in, quality out. But also => Garbage in, garbage out.

    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

    Content creators... Please read, OK? When you create clothing and use the setup or fitting room to get it rigged?
    Then => DELETE the obj file that Poser saves for you, and replace it back with the properly grouped and welded obj file YOU created in your 3D app.

    => All files or links send so far show obj files with lost vertex order, or with unwelded parts flying off.
    And 99% of the time that results in something like the examples below.
    0_1466497888812_vertex-order lost.jpg
    The arrows point at the edges that belong to the group next to the selected chest.

    0_1466497935728_vertex-order lost2.jpg
    The top row of arrows points to edges that are in the buttocks (with both thigh selected)
    The bottom row shows edges that are in the shins.

    oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

    This happens when Poser saves obj files for you from the setup and the fitting room. (Or when you use the autogroup function in Poser.)
    => => => All obj files that Poser saves for you from the setup or fitting room have lost their vertex order. <= <= <= because Poser uses its "reweld at import" to repair them internally.

    Content creators have to delete these automatically saved obj files, and replace them back with the properly grouped obj files they created in their 3D app.

    oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

    For personal use this does NOT have to be an issue. These automatically created obj files WORK in Poser, because Poser does that "rewelding at import".
    But they can become an issue in the Fitting room, or when using the morph brush where they can result in "spiking" when painting over them.

    When you see "spiking" in the morph brush? The first question to ask yourself, and to check, is : Am I working with an obj file that had lost vertex order somewhere? => Because you can never predict what will happen with those.

    oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

    When using a 3rd party obj file in the fitting room, always check in a 3D app, (I use Blender) that the vertex groups are solid, properly welded, and that all vertex, edges and polygons belong to their proper groups.

    Thanks for reading, Tony

    (To the brave souls that send obj files or links, you will all get a proper answer to your individual issues, but give us some time to work out the solutions, thanks)


  • Poser Ambassadors

    On a side note: There is more to this, but I can not go into details at this moment.

    Conventonal rigged figures do NOT have this issue but :
    Weightmapped figures can get different weights on a vertex that is at a weld between 2 groups.

    In other words;
    A single vertex, can have 2 different weights in a weightmap, depending on what group is selected. (because internally, it "has" a invisible double)
    And sometimes the wrong "bend weight" gets projected in the clothing when fitted.

    It is VERY important to only release properly grouped and welded obj files.



  • @vilters Tony, why does Poser create them if you have then turn around and delete them? And to be honest, while i know you know your stuff, I'd really like to have a developer tell us what their thinking is when they code this stuff like this. I'm assuming there is some rationale behind having Poser create a new object file when it already has one.



  • I can't speak in this instance for the engineers but consider this:

    You have a model, it's not grouped. You bring it into Poser to group that model. Now, what's easier? Exporting that model out manually, locating the folder it's supposed to be in and then tying the CR2 to that or having Poser create a copy of that grouped model along with your CR2 already tied together?

    It's easy to say, "This is stupid. Why should it be like this? I always group my models beforehand anyway" but not everyone does. For those who don't, why should they be forced to do extra work? At some point a compromise has to be made and while I don't know if this was the thinking behind it - this was a thing before I got hired - I imagine that a situation like what I described is precisely why Poser saves out OBJs when saving a newly rigged character to the library.

    You should also remember that it wasn't always meant for people to manually morph their figures in an external application. It was expected you'd just use the content as is. Things evolved but some things from that older way of thinking remain and that situation I described is still a valid concern - especially if the person is just breaking their teeth on the whole rigging thing and have no intent on morphing externally or internally for that matter. So it's possible some of this carries over into the fitting room and other aspects of Poser involving OBJ files. What would be great (and is a wish of mine) is that we can do away with grouping meshes entirely. Technically we can now but selection of body parts becomes tricky unless you use body handles.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Hi Teyon, nice to see you here.

    Guys, (and gals), => A long time ago, Poser was a "stand alone app". There was almost nothing around it.

    One could create a mesh in a 3D app, import the obj file in Poser, group it, go to the setup room to rig it, and save the obj and cr2 to your HD.
    Done. => At that time, there was no issue, because Poser rewelds at import anyway, so . . . no problem, no solution required.

    But nowadays and with all the new tools around? And we can walk in and out of Poser with multiple files. We have "tons" of apps around Poser to handle the most complicated files, and we "can" assume that those that do such things know the pro's and con's of such operations.

    There are a lot of very high qualified content creators out there, but also a few that make shortcuts without thinking about what the end users "might or might not" do with what they create. => Refitting to other figures is one such thing were end users "can" get in trouble.

    These "vertex order lost" obj files are absolutely fine for use in Poser on the figures they were created for.

    But, unfortunately, that's about it, because Poser is the ONLY app out there that does this particular "reweld at import" and "unweld at export", and still manages to see the groups properly.

    When one takes these obj files to Blender (or equivalent) to continue reworking on them? => First you have to regroup properly, thereby loosing all existing morphs. => Unless, ha-ha-ha-, PoserPro has now a "copy morphs from function", and it usually does a very fine job at that. (Even between different meshes of different origine.)

    There is more, and there have been some fixes along the road concerning double vertex (remember Alyson2), but we are not there yet.

    Well, that's the long story in a nutshell. (A small nutshell). LOL.


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