Poser has lost the Content Wars...



  • I can't speak in this instance for the engineers but consider this:

    You have a model, it's not grouped. You bring it into Poser to group that model. Now, what's easier? Exporting that model out manually, locating the folder it's supposed to be in and then tying the CR2 to that or having Poser create a copy of that grouped model along with your CR2 already tied together?

    It's easy to say, "This is stupid. Why should it be like this? I always group my models beforehand anyway" but not everyone does. For those who don't, why should they be forced to do extra work? At some point a compromise has to be made and while I don't know if this was the thinking behind it - this was a thing before I got hired - I imagine that a situation like what I described is precisely why Poser saves out OBJs when saving a newly rigged character to the library.

    You should also remember that it wasn't always meant for people to manually morph their figures in an external application. It was expected you'd just use the content as is. Things evolved but some things from that older way of thinking remain and that situation I described is still a valid concern - especially if the person is just breaking their teeth on the whole rigging thing and have no intent on morphing externally or internally for that matter. So it's possible some of this carries over into the fitting room and other aspects of Poser involving OBJ files. What would be great (and is a wish of mine) is that we can do away with grouping meshes entirely. Technically we can now but selection of body parts becomes tricky unless you use body handles.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Hi Teyon, nice to see you here.

    Guys, (and gals), => A long time ago, Poser was a "stand alone app". There was almost nothing around it.

    One could create a mesh in a 3D app, import the obj file in Poser, group it, go to the setup room to rig it, and save the obj and cr2 to your HD.
    Done. => At that time, there was no issue, because Poser rewelds at import anyway, so . . . no problem, no solution required.

    But nowadays and with all the new tools around? And we can walk in and out of Poser with multiple files. We have "tons" of apps around Poser to handle the most complicated files, and we "can" assume that those that do such things know the pro's and con's of such operations.

    There are a lot of very high qualified content creators out there, but also a few that make shortcuts without thinking about what the end users "might or might not" do with what they create. => Refitting to other figures is one such thing were end users "can" get in trouble.

    These "vertex order lost" obj files are absolutely fine for use in Poser on the figures they were created for.

    But, unfortunately, that's about it, because Poser is the ONLY app out there that does this particular "reweld at import" and "unweld at export", and still manages to see the groups properly.

    When one takes these obj files to Blender (or equivalent) to continue reworking on them? => First you have to regroup properly, thereby loosing all existing morphs. => Unless, ha-ha-ha-, PoserPro has now a "copy morphs from function", and it usually does a very fine job at that. (Even between different meshes of different origine.)

    There is more, and there have been some fixes along the road concerning double vertex (remember Alyson2), but we are not there yet.

    Well, that's the long story in a nutshell. (A small nutshell). LOL.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    A vendors point of view.
    In February Willdial and I released a plugin and tutorial set that makes Genesis 3 usable in Poser 11 and in some cases previous versions
    .We had 2,500 downloads in less than 1 month.
    We're now at 2,873 downloads
    It is still one of the top downloaded items in Freestuff.
    Yes, it is still a work in progress and we will soon have a path the will allow the user to bring Genesis 3 DS content directly into Poser without going into Daz Studio.
    These download figures show this is what the MAJORITY of Poser users want.
    The same thing they have wanted from the beginning.
    Daz models and content in Poser.
    The Poser market lost it's market share as the ability to bring Daz models into Poser declined.

    A vendors point of view.
    Who is the user that buys content?
    The average user that PURCHASES content is a hobbyist.
    They have an income and LIMITED TIME TO MAKE CONTENT.
    They want out of the box content so when they have some free time they can exercise
    their creativity.
    Time is valuable to the hobbyist.
    They want to create art not fix figures, pull vertices, learn new shader structures or have to rebuild characters.
    They have families, jobs and their creative rendering time is precious.
    Vendors make products that users are willing to pay money for because know they can spend their time creating art with the products they purchase because they work.
    Lose sight of your PAYING client's needs and you lose your sales.

    Why do many bars have ladies drink free nights?
    Because many of the customers come for the babes.
    (this is not meant as sexist, just a reminder of how SOME bars work.

    There are 2,873 customers interested in rendering Genesis 3 in Poser.
    Isn't it time we made that happen in Poser?
    Enough said.

    Cheerio
    lululee



  • @lululee Sorry, but how many people DOWNLOAD your freebie means absolutely nothing.

    The true test is how many renders of that freebie do you see? How many people do you SEE using it and producing renders? Me, not so much.

    I don't use Genesis anything. I have no desire to use Genesis anything.

    There are a LOT of us out here that could care less about Genesis anything.

    I want to see the SM resources continue refining and introducing POSER and POSER products.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @Glitterati3D said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    @lululee Sorry, but how many people DOWNLOAD your freebie means absolutely nothing.

    The true test is how many renders of that freebie do you see? How many people do you SEE using it and producing renders? Me, not so much.

    I don't use Genesis anything. I have no desire to use Genesis anything.

    There are a LOT of us out here that could care less about Genesis anything.

    I want to see the SM resources continue refining and introducing POSER and POSER products.

    I agree here. When I want to use Genesis, I use DS. When I use Poser , I want to render Poser stuff and not DUF files converted to poserfiles.
    What the People want in real is a good character. Which get supported. If this happens, they don't care anymore about Genesis.



  • @Glitterati3D said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    @lululee Sorry, but how many people DOWNLOAD your freebie means absolutely nothing.

    The true test is how many renders of that freebie do you see? How many people do you SEE using it and producing renders? Me, not so much.

    I don't use Genesis anything. I have no desire to use Genesis anything.

    There are a LOT of us out here that could care less about Genesis anything.

    I want to see the SM resources continue refining and introducing POSER and POSER products.

    There's been lots of customers wanting to use Genesis in Poser, doesn't make them wrong, it's just a different opinion to yours.

    I don't see any difference in Smith Micro supporting Genesis to their support of Cycles, both are 3rd party, yet cycles seems to change far more often than dson does.

    Personally I want Native Poser figures that are versatile, attractive and well implemented and I don't care who makes them, I'm hoping that Orion will be the figure for me, but hey I'd use genesis1to3 more if it wasn't so kludgey in Poser, so each to their own.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @lululee said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    The Poser market lost it's market share as the ability to bring Daz models into Poser declined.

    A vendors point of view.
    Who is the user that buys content?
    The average user that PURCHASES content is a hobbyist.
    They have an income and LIMITED TIME TO MAKE CONTENT.
    They want out of the box content so when they have some free time they can exercise
    their creativity.
    Time is valuable to the hobbyist.
    They want to create art not fix figures, pull vertices, learn new shader structures or have to rebuild characters.
    They have families, jobs and their creative rendering time is precious.
    Vendors make products that users are willing to pay money for because know they can spend their time creating art with the products they purchase because they work.
    Lose sight of your PAYING client's needs and you lose your sales.

    Much of the same can be said about content creators as well. When you have to spend hours or days or weeks "fixing" a figure, and fighting with bugs and tools that don't cooperate, and built-in asymmetry sent to your modeling app, and figuring out all the work-arounds that you need to employ, it makes it very difficult and frustrating to actually create content. So eventually you just start working on something else.



  • @adi said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    @Glitterati3D said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    @lululee Sorry, but how many people DOWNLOAD your freebie means absolutely nothing.

    The true test is how many renders of that freebie do you see? How many people do you SEE using it and producing renders? Me, not so much.

    I don't use Genesis anything. I have no desire to use Genesis anything.

    There are a LOT of us out here that could care less about Genesis anything.

    I want to see the SM resources continue refining and introducing POSER and POSER products.

    There's been lots of customers wanting to use Genesis in Poser, doesn't make them wrong, it's just a different opinion to yours.

    I don't see any difference in Smith Micro supporting Genesis to their support of Cycles, both are 3rd party, yet cycles seems to change far more often than dson does.

    Personally I want Native Poser figures that are versatile, attractive and well implemented and I don't care who makes them, but hey I'd use genesis1to3 more if it wasn't so kludgey in Poser, so each to their own.

    No one said, nor inferred, they were wrong.

    I simply posted a differing opinion from yours - they are allowed when not on the DAZ forums, you know.

    Lululee stated her opinion, I stated mine. It is allowed.



  • I have been watching this thread and it is starting to go south.

    Respect others opinions and things will be fine.

    We are not going to have app wars here, it is as simple as that.
    Can we have open discussion? Sure we can, but it has to be respectful.

    Be respectful of others, and their opinions.
    All of us have a common passion, and that is 3D art.
    Please keep that in mind.

    Some of us want the same things, others completely different things. Respect that...


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @adi said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    I don't see any difference in Smith Micro supporting Genesis to their support of Cycles, both are 3rd party, yet cycles seems to change far more often than dson does.

    The difference is that Cycles is open source. Anyone can take it and do pretty much whatever they want with it.



  • So everyday I get an e-mail from Daz about new content. I scan through it, and most of the time don't see anything I want. Not because none of it is nice, but because just about everything that does catch my eye, I already have, just for v4 instead of G3. In fact even with props and environments, half the time the ones that interest me, and iRay versions of things I already have.

    Now that's not to say there's nothing new coming out on Daz. And unlike the OP I don't do much modern day renders, so I'm looking at different things. But I find that as a whole much of their 'new' content is duplicates of stuff already out there.

    But regardless of how new it is, there is definitely more DS stuff being released than Poser stuff. I think part of that may have to do with the fact that creating stuff for other's to use in Poser has become difficult.

    I'm new to content creation, and I keep finding all sorts of things I have to learn, not about how to make content, but how to make content that won't break for others. I can easily and quickly make content I myself can use, but I'm finding that there are any number of things Poser does with geometry files, that make it very hard to make content for others. Daz on the other hand, has made several of these things much easier on content creators. Doesn't mean there isn't still work involved (and a lot of work, if you find DS's interface confusing the way I do) but you don't have to spend as much time editing files and the like.

    And this can be a big deal when it comes to big environment sets. That being said, I know of at least one person over at Hivewire, who is working on making a wonderful modern house and stable. And it's not something he's been able to finish overnight, because of all the wonderful detail he's been putting in it.



  • @Glitterati3D said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    @adi said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    @Glitterati3D said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    @lululee Sorry, but how many people DOWNLOAD your freebie means absolutely nothing.

    The true test is how many renders of that freebie do you see? How many people do you SEE using it and producing renders? Me, not so much.

    I don't use Genesis anything. I have no desire to use Genesis anything.

    There are a LOT of us out here that could care less about Genesis anything.

    I want to see the SM resources continue refining and introducing POSER and POSER products.

    There's been lots of customers wanting to use Genesis in Poser, doesn't make them wrong, it's just a different opinion to yours.

    I don't see any difference in Smith Micro supporting Genesis to their support of Cycles, both are 3rd party, yet cycles seems to change far more often than dson does.

    Personally I want Native Poser figures that are versatile, attractive and well implemented and I don't care who makes them, but hey I'd use genesis1to3 more if it wasn't so kludgey in Poser, so each to their own.

    No one said, nor inferred, they were wrong.

    I simply posted a differing opinion from yours - they are allowed when not on the DAZ forums, you know.

    Lululee stated her opinion, I stated mine. It is allowed.

    I posted because your comment came across as terse and you are quite happy to have a go at anyone who even mentions wanting to use genesis, you made it quite clear that mine and lululees opinions where dismissed because they didn't match yours.

    I don't visit the Daz forums, so why the snide comment about opinions. You seem to be the only person declaring their opinion the only one that counts.

    I'm a Poser user, I make content and want to use the best figures be they made by Daz, Anton, Sixus1media or anyone else



  • @adi And no one is stopping you. Go forth. Make content. Use any content you would like.

    No one said otherwise.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @gadgetgirl said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    I think part of that may have to do with the fact that creating stuff for other's to use in Poser has become difficult.

    I'm new to content creation, and I keep finding all sorts of things I have to learn, not about how to make content, but how to make content that won't break for others. I can easily and quickly make content I myself can use, but I'm finding that there are any number of things Poser does with geometry files, that make it very hard to make content for others

    Yes, exactly. The fitting room would be great for vendors to adapt older content to newer Poser figures, as it works very well fitting clothing to just about any figure you want if you know how to work with it, and it doesn't even require leaving Poser for most things. But until the issues with the mesh that the fitting room produces are resolved (as Tony detailed above), it's virtually useless to vendors.

    I have a full body adult character morph for Roxie that I built well over a year ago that I've been tweaking and refining off and on, that I've been wanting to put on one of the stores, but I can't do anything with her due to the asymmetry issues in the mesh and rig. I can use her in my own renders if I want because I can spot fix any issues that might pop up during poses, but she's not store quality. I could take the time to sort it all out by hand, but that could take virtually forever and could just be a big waste of time. Or I could just work on something else that doesn't give me so many headaches.

    And as I've been developing my own figures further I'm running into very much the same issues as I do with other figures already built. Poser's tools are great for customizing your own content, but when it comes to creating store-quality content, there is a lot more work and patience required.



  • @AmbientShade said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    @adi said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    I don't see any difference in Smith Micro supporting Genesis to their support of Cycles, both are 3rd party, yet cycles seems to change far more often than dson does.

    The difference is that Cycles is open source. Anyone can take it and do pretty much whatever they want with it.

    My point being that it's reliant on a third party, just like dson, and when the blender people move on to the next best render thing Poser will be left with another unsupported plug-in, like the hair room which hasn't been supported by the original makers in years.

    So i don't see that supporting the daz figures is any differently to cycles as they both update quite regularly and they'll both be made redundant eventually.
    The frequent changes and 3rd party aspect were both reason Smith Micro gave for not supporting Genesis.

    Just my opinion, no need to worry about it



  • @adi Cycles is Open Source. Abandoned plugin does not apply.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    It's not reliant on a 3rd party. Open source means you take the code and modify it to your own needs and you don't owe the original developer anything, in most instances, accept perhaps a nod in the credits. Nor do you have to depend on any of the changes the original developer does to the original source code once you've adapted the code to your own methods. You can take it off into an entirely different direction if that's what you want to do.

    I don't know if the same is true with the hair or cloth rooms, since I don't know where they originated. They could have different licensing than cycles has.



  • over half of all open-source software - github, SourceForge etc etc is abandoned. So i'm not sure that it matters who makes a plug-in they can all have support end


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Ok, but that's irrelevant to cycles and superfly. Blender could abandon cycles tomorrow, and Poser's version of cycles could still continue development for as long as the Poser devs want to do so.



  • @lululee said in Poser has lost the Content Wars...:

    A vendors point of view.
    In February Willdial and I released a plugin and tutorial set that makes Genesis 3 usable in Poser 11 and in some cases previous versions
    .We had 2,500 downloads in less than 1 month.
    We're now at 2,873 downloads
    It is still one of the top downloaded items in Freestuff.
    Yes, it is still a work in progress and we will soon have a path the will allow the user to bring Genesis 3 DS content directly into Poser without going into Daz Studio.
    These download figures show this is what the MAJORITY of Poser users want.
    The same thing they have wanted from the beginning.
    Daz models and content in Poser.
    The Poser market lost it's market share as the ability to bring Daz models into Poser declined.

    A vendors point of view.
    Who is the user that buys content?
    The average user that PURCHASES content is a hobbyist.
    They have an income and LIMITED TIME TO MAKE CONTENT.
    They want out of the box content so when they have some free time they can exercise
    their creativity.
    Time is valuable to the hobbyist.
    They want to create art not fix figures, pull vertices, learn new shader structures or have to rebuild characters.
    They have families, jobs and their creative rendering time is precious.
    Vendors make products that users are willing to pay money for because know they can spend their time creating art with the products they purchase because they work.
    Lose sight of your PAYING client's needs and you lose your sales.

    Why do many bars have ladies drink free nights?
    Because many of the customers come for the babes.
    (this is not meant as sexist, just a reminder of how SOME bars work.

    There are 2,873 customers interested in rendering Genesis 3 in Poser.
    Isn't it time we made that happen in Poser?
    Enough said.

    Cheerio
    lululee

    Complete aside here... did your plugin ever get released in an OS X compatible format? I got all excited and downloaded as soon as I heard about it -- and then discovered it was a Windows-only .msi file that I can't use. I'd love to give it a try, but...


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