Thoughts on Eyes

  • Feel free to continue the conversation on eyes in this thread.

  • @pumeco In my renders, unless the figure is interacting with another figure or a prop, then I pose the eyes so they are looking at the camera. I have noticed that if I set the aspect of the image to portrait I have a very difficult time getting the eyes posed. They looked like they are at the camera but I hit the render button and they miss their mark.

    Still having issues with reflections on the eye surface with Superfly but only been at it for a couple of days. Firefly I had down pretty much.0_1466878389695_Maggy both lights.jpg

  • @James_in_3D said in Post Your SuperFly Renders:

    Perhaps insulting everyone in the thread under the guise of constructive criticism isn't the best way to approach a topic.

    LOL, ya think?

  • @James_in_3D said in Post Your SuperFly Renders:

    @Glitterati3D said in Post Your SuperFly Renders:

    @James_in_3D said in Post Your SuperFly Renders:

    Perhaps insulting everyone in the thread under the guise of constructive criticism isn't the best way to approach a topic.

    LOL, ya think?

    Some people seem to have trouble understanding this. Some people need it pointed out. Some people completely miss understatement.

    And some people were never taught they shouldn't walk in a room and start tossing it.

  • Ok folks, lets calm down a bit. Not everyone is going for realism.

  • And with that post I will stop feeding the trolls. plonk

  • @pumeco I do not want to get much into it, but if you say things like that your "eyes still look infinitely better and more "alive"" you sound very arrogant and rude, even if it would be true . While I think criticism is generally a good thing for artists, yours is everything but constructive, because you only use subjective and non-measurable qualities like "alive" and "soul" to criticise all the images posted in this thread and this does not help anyone creating better renders. So why not share a few tips on how to actually render better eyes?

  • Ways and means, dude. The thing is, BB can be pretty blunt but he also shows how to do things, gives examples, screenies of material room set ups etc. I feel like I've made a leap in understanding Poser's lights in Superfly (enough to actually publish a tutorial on it), but rather than 'rubbing people's noses in it' I just post my renders... if people ask 'how did you do that?' I tell them (or point at the tutorial).
    A good render is made up of composition, lighting, materials. I can now do 1 and 2, working on 3. I wish BB and Teyon were more forthcoming on their processes, but hey, I take what I can get. I don't disagree with your assertions on the importance of eyes, but 'shaming' people never works... if you want to make an impression here, the easiest way I've seen is to post a killer image and just wait to see if anyone asks how you did it. Support as well as critique... if someone posts an image where you think the eyes are good, say so and ask them to post the light/material set up... lighten up on the ad hominem stuff...

  • @pumeco said in Post Your SuperFly Renders:

    Like I said, my attitude was intentional. Baggins tried the subtle approach and as far as I recall, nothing came of it. It was like yeah, we're not very good at eyes, but anyway ... and it was forgotten about. Looking through this thread, it was impossible not to get irritated by the disregard people seem to have for the importance of eyes that have "life" to them. Superfly is proof, yet again, that no matter how advanced the render technology, nothing has changed because most people still don't understand that the renderer does not do this stuff for you.

    Artists who work with CG figures have to learn how to do eyes properly, it's not optional, you absolutely have to do it or you'll fail time and time again. This is why I'm rubbing your faces in it. I'm basically trying to disgrace you by pointing out that your eyes are getting outclassed by a render that was done in a realtime DX9 game engine that has been around for over a decade now!

    You have "Superfly" for crying out loud, so there is no excuse for this, especially as learning to do believable eyes is dead easy anyway, and there is surely plenty of stuff out there already that will teach how it's done!

    Bloody hell, look at the time ... I'm off to bed!

    Again, you describe that, what you think is missing in all the renders here, with the completely subjective quality "life", so I will conclude that you actually do not know much about rendering eyes. And no, the render you posted does not help making your point and it does not outclass anything (yes, this attitude was intentional, too :P )

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Creepy is the correct word.
    Certainly not.
    Not in this galaxy.

  • Poser Ambassadors



    @pumeco please note. I have a B.A. in art, I have been drawing for over 50 years and doing digital art for over 30 years, I have recieved awards for my artwork. This is my background, fact and not self professed expertise. Top image is a photo of Actress Meg Foster ... the closest I could find to having eyes like your image. The second is a prismacolor portrait that I made of my roommate's daughter on her graduation. I study eyes. (maybe because I'm visually ipaired, but I've done extensive studies both with traditional art at digital. I have threads around the web on getting realistic eyes in Poser, Just ask bagginsbill, who has helped me immensely in this goal. I don't have it perfect yet myself, but I"'m working on doing my best.


    Honestly, I find your eyes far less lifelike than any of these, even if I need to use my own studies as an example. Fellow posters, If I am out of line here, please put me in my place. I have unfortunately taken up the challenge here and this has been bugging me for days. Also ... I totally agree with Tony. Sorry.

  • @pumeco tl; dr

  • @Boni Really impressed by your Prismacolor portrait. I never even once managed to draw an open smile without making it look creepy and wrong. Great work!

  • @James_in_3D I pose my eyes separately, one at a time. I use the red selection circle around the iris as a guide Getting the inner red circle to be in the middle of the outer eyeball circle.

  • Eye reflections:

    It seems to me that bright spots that are reflected in a real eye are more pronounced than dark spots. If the eyes are reflecting the ground and there is a very prominent light source hitting the ground those spots reflect more in the eye than the parts in shadow.

  • my eye settings
    adjust amount of reflection on eye surface depending on lighting/envrioshere. adjust brightness of sclera to taste with the HSV node.0_1466967126471_Eye settings.jpg

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Thank you for your kind words @n-i-c-l-a-s ... It has been almost 20 years since I've drawn with Prismacolor due to my visual impairment. This is one of my pieces I'm most proud of.

    @Teyon : thank you for moving this thread ... I'm so sorry I took the bait like I did. Eyes are a "Pet project" of mine and it just bothered me.

    @James_in_3D : you have some observations here. I love what you have!

    @ghostship : That is great settings! I love it as well.

    @pumeco: If your phrasing was far more humble without absolutes and global generalizations ... I'm sure your opinions would be accepted more graciously. This is after all art and art is not a science but subjective and we all have our views.

    As for convergence. The separate ... and "circle lining up" technique is wonderful ... and I've observed some people DON"T have eyes that line up. * don't bet that's because I am blind in one eye and have nastagmas. Take a look at photos of Britney Spears ... especially her younger images ... the shape of her eye sockets make her appear slightly cross-eyed at times. But at the same time it is an engaging expression.

  • I go about shaders a bit differently than most.
    What changed the way I do that, is the compound node feature that is very similar to another app I use.

    As for the cornea shader, I have found that lighting used has a dramatic effect on the cornea.
    I use HDRI lighting with SuperFly, and add lights as needed.
    Not all HDRI images are created equal, so you get different amounts of light from them.
    Many of us use different lighting techniques too, which compounds setting things up as well.
    Scene to scene there is usually something that needs tweaked accordingly, regardless of the shader setup used.
    There just isn't a one size fits all simple shader for certain things, different scenes, and the light technique used.

    So what is the easiest way to get around all of this?
    The simple answer for me, was to make nodes setups that can do an array of different things simply by adjusting settings of a single compound node.
    This node can also be used in larger node setups as well.

    Corneas are one of those areas where you get a lot of different shader setups floating around.
    If one figure has the eye modeled one way, and the next the other, a single shader setup may not always work out as intended.
    Throw the lighting differences on top of that, and the render output differences compound.
    This setup works on many different designs of eyes, with many different lighting techniques.

    Here is an example, and one of the compound nodes from my collection for you to play with.

    alt text

    This node setup is not designed to be 100% correct, it is designed to be quickly adjustable.

    Pauline only has two material zones for the eyeball itself. The diffuse surface, and the cornea.
    Here are the settings used in the above render with the compound node used on the cornea.

    alt text

    As you can see, you have access to the majority of the material settings, all in one spot.
    All from one little node snippet packed into a convenient compound node.

    Did you notice the Gemstone in the ear ring? It uses the same compound node as the cornea.
    The best part about a node setup like this, is that you can quickly set up a vast array of different things with it.
    Corena's, Glass, do odd effects with layers and masks, add it to your own node setups, etc.
    Once you learn how to set it up, it goes very quickly. It also saves a lot of space and tidies up the material room.
    There is no need to go hunting thru the library for another shader, you already have it in the scene to copy over and change the settings.
    All you have to do to get the effect I did on the gem is set it like this.

    alt text

    Is this always the best way to do it?
    No not always, if you want it to be 100 percent mathematically correct you need a node structure that is just that.
    Mathematically correct shaders, require the entire scene to be mathematically correct.
    If you want something that is fairly easy to use and offers a lot of adjustments all in one spot, I think this is the way to go.

    You can get basically the same effect out of this as you can with most cornea shader setups, accept it also can do far more.
    I do progressive spot renders to get it set up, and go from there.
    This node is for GPU rendering, but should work with many setups doing CPU as well.

    Here is the Compound Node for you to play with.
    One shader, that can do far more than just corneas.
    Rename it after you download it, and extract it from the zip.
    Put it where ever you want too in your Runtime(s).



  • Some experiences I made concerning eye reflection and positioning:

    The amount of reflection depends on what is in your scene, especially the lights and large bright objects, such as the sky or the background. If you have a studio scene with just a black void behind the camera, the eyes will only reflect the lights. In this case, I found the standard settings of EZSkin for both FF and SF very useful.

    If my character is looking at a bright background or a sky dome, I change the eye surface material to a physical shader with 100% transparency. This avoids that the eyes become milky from reflection, but you can still see the highlights.

    The SF area lights are great light sources for smooth lighting with subtle shadows. But if you make them too big and place them at the wrong angle, you get gigantic highlights in the eyes. In this case it can help to reduce the scale of the area light until the reflection looks reasonable. You may have to adjust the intensity of the light, though. The same goes for spot lights in SF.

    Eye positioning can be tricky if you want your character to look directly into the camera (which is not always desireable, by the way). Here's what I found out in 20 years of using Poser:

    • Do not trust the "point to camera" option for the eyes. In most cases, this simply does not work.
    • Always adjust the eyes from the camera view that you will be using for your final render. Sounds obvious, but it is tempting to use the face camera or zoom in for eye adjustment.
    • I usually use the direct manipulation tool to adjust the eye rotation. Select the first eye, adjust the Up-Down angle until the "equator" line is completely horizontal, then adjust the Side-Side until the arrow is directly pointing at you. Repeat for the second eye.
    • The left and right eyes can have different Side-Side angles, but their Up-Down angle is always the same. It is useful to check if that value is the same for both eyes.
    • Some characters have a wrong eyeball position within the eye openings of the head. In this case the direct manipulation tool is of no use, as the character still seems to look the other way. Here you have to change the angles until both eyes look just right. Which leads us to...
    • Trust the preview! If your character looks right at you in the preview, it will be fine in the final render most of the time.
    • All eye angles seem to be correct but your character still has a wonky look? Activate "Show hidden parameters" in the parameter menu and make sure that the Twist parameter is set to 0. This hidden little bugger often gets activated when you directly manipulate the eyes.
    • If you want your character to directly look at another person or a prop, use the face camera. Rotate and translate the face camera until you are "inside the other person's head" or sitting on the prop in question. Then position the eyes of your character so that it looks directly into the face camera.

    Just my tuppence, hope it will help somebody.