Thoughts on Eyes



  • @James_in_3D said in Post Your SuperFly Renders:

    Perhaps insulting everyone in the thread under the guise of constructive criticism isn't the best way to approach a topic.

    LOL, ya think?



  • @Glitterati3D said in Post Your SuperFly Renders:

    @James_in_3D said in Post Your SuperFly Renders:

    Perhaps insulting everyone in the thread under the guise of constructive criticism isn't the best way to approach a topic.

    LOL, ya think?

    Some people seem to have trouble understanding this. Some people need it pointed out. Some people completely miss understatement.



  • @James_in_3D said in Post Your SuperFly Renders:

    @Glitterati3D said in Post Your SuperFly Renders:

    @James_in_3D said in Post Your SuperFly Renders:

    Perhaps insulting everyone in the thread under the guise of constructive criticism isn't the best way to approach a topic.

    LOL, ya think?

    Some people seem to have trouble understanding this. Some people need it pointed out. Some people completely miss understatement.

    And some people were never taught they shouldn't walk in a room and start tossing it.



  • Ok folks, lets calm down a bit. Not everyone is going for realism.



  • And with that post I will stop feeding the trolls. plonk



  • @pumeco I do not want to get much into it, but if you say things like that your "eyes still look infinitely better and more "alive"" you sound very arrogant and rude, even if it would be true . While I think criticism is generally a good thing for artists, yours is everything but constructive, because you only use subjective and non-measurable qualities like "alive" and "soul" to criticise all the images posted in this thread and this does not help anyone creating better renders. So why not share a few tips on how to actually render better eyes?



  • @n-i-c-l-a-s said in Post Your SuperFly Renders:

    @pumeco I do not want to get much into it, but if you say things like that your "eyes still look infinitely better and more "alive"" you sound very arrogant and rude, even if it would be true . While I think criticism is generally a good thing for artists, yours is everything but constructive, because you only use subjective and non-measurable qualities like "alive" and "soul" to criticise all the images posted in this thread and this does not help anyone creating better renders. So why not share a few tips on how to actually render better eyes?

    Well said.



  • Ways and means, dude. The thing is, BB can be pretty blunt but he also shows how to do things, gives examples, screenies of material room set ups etc. I feel like I've made a leap in understanding Poser's lights in Superfly (enough to actually publish a tutorial on it), but rather than 'rubbing people's noses in it' I just post my renders... if people ask 'how did you do that?' I tell them (or point at the tutorial).
    A good render is made up of composition, lighting, materials. I can now do 1 and 2, working on 3. I wish BB and Teyon were more forthcoming on their processes, but hey, I take what I can get. I don't disagree with your assertions on the importance of eyes, but 'shaming' people never works... if you want to make an impression here, the easiest way I've seen is to post a killer image and just wait to see if anyone asks how you did it. Support as well as critique... if someone posts an image where you think the eyes are good, say so and ask them to post the light/material set up... lighten up on the ad hominem stuff...



  • @pumeco said in Post Your SuperFly Renders:

    @n-i-c-l-a-s
    Like I said, my attitude was intentional. Baggins tried the subtle approach and as far as I recall, nothing came of it. It was like yeah, we're not very good at eyes, but anyway ... and it was forgotten about. Looking through this thread, it was impossible not to get irritated by the disregard people seem to have for the importance of eyes that have "life" to them. Superfly is proof, yet again, that no matter how advanced the render technology, nothing has changed because most people still don't understand that the renderer does not do this stuff for you.

    Artists who work with CG figures have to learn how to do eyes properly, it's not optional, you absolutely have to do it or you'll fail time and time again. This is why I'm rubbing your faces in it. I'm basically trying to disgrace you by pointing out that your eyes are getting outclassed by a render that was done in a realtime DX9 game engine that has been around for over a decade now!

    You have "Superfly" for crying out loud, so there is no excuse for this, especially as learning to do believable eyes is dead easy anyway, and there is surely plenty of stuff out there already that will teach how it's done!

    Bloody hell, look at the time ... I'm off to bed!

    Again, you describe that, what you think is missing in all the renders here, with the completely subjective quality "life", so I will conclude that you actually do not know much about rendering eyes. And no, the render you posted does not help making your point and it does not outclass anything (yes, this attitude was intentional, too :P )


  • Poser Ambassadors

    @pumeco
    Creepy is the correct word.
    Beautiful?
    Certainly not.
    Realistic?
    Not in this galaxy.


  • Poser Ambassadors

    0_1466950882500_MegFoster2.jpg

    0_1466950994350_Traci_ColorPencil.jpg

    @pumeco please note. I have a B.A. in art, I have been drawing for over 50 years and doing digital art for over 30 years, I have recieved awards for my artwork. This is my background, fact and not self professed expertise. Top image is a photo of Actress Meg Foster ... the closest I could find to having eyes like your image. The second is a prismacolor portrait that I made of my roommate's daughter on her graduation. I study eyes. (maybe because I'm visually ipaired, but I've done extensive studies both with traditional art at digital. I have threads around the web on getting realistic eyes in Poser, Just ask bagginsbill, who has helped me immensely in this goal. I don't have it perfect yet myself, but I"'m working on doing my best.

    0_1466951956224_Danny3.jpg

    Honestly, I find your eyes far less lifelike than any of these, even if I need to use my own studies as an example. Fellow posters, If I am out of line here, please put me in my place. I have unfortunately taken up the challenge here and this has been bugging me for days. Also ... I totally agree with Tony. Sorry.



  • @pumeco tl; dr



  • @Boni Really impressed by your Prismacolor portrait. I never even once managed to draw an open smile without making it look creepy and wrong. Great work!



  • Thank you, @Teyon, despite what anyone else says, for moving this to another thread. I think this issue does bear some discussion. Assuming the OP stays out of it, I think we can all behave like reasonable people and have a valuable discussion.

    I don't agree at all with the approach the OP took to this issue, nor do I agree with his assertion that his image was somehow the pinnacle of realism. I mean, seriously.

    But... The issue of eyes and realism is as old as art.

    It's something most of us have thought about, struggled with, and sought advice on in many a forum thread.

    So. Eyes.

    Things I thought were fair (and these points are just my opinion based on my experience; I'm not stating these as any kind of universal facts -- and let's be clear: I am NOT validating the OP in any way; I'm only addressing this because almost all of us have thought about this issue):

    • baked reflections aren't necessarily as good as real reflections
      I think baked reflections certainly can have their place, though. Sometimes you want a specific effect. Sometimes you want to do a studio portrait with windows reflecting in the eyes, without going through the struggle of setting up a scene around your character. Sometimes playing with the real reflections and lights doesn't give you the result you want. And this is the key: it's the result the artist wants that is primary.

    • too much reflection is bad
      I have to agree with this; sometimes eyes in cg look like they're made of solid polished glass -- and they aren't. At least mine aren't. If you have eyes (or one eye) that is made of solid polished glass, I apologize for this statement. ;)

    • eye convergence is a major factor in realism
      I agree with this, and it still drives me crazy trying to get it right when a character is looking at the camera. :) Using the "eyes left" or "eyes right" dial that moves both eyes at the same time just moves both eyes at the same time. But depending on the distance of the object being looked at, the angle of the head, and the placement of the object being looked at, either eye might be facing in a slightly different direction, or at a slightly different angle.

    How have you tackled the issue of eyes in your renders?



  • @James_in_3D I pose my eyes separately, one at a time. I use the red selection circle around the iris as a guide Getting the inner red circle to be in the middle of the outer eyeball circle.



  • Eye reflections:

    It seems to me that bright spots that are reflected in a real eye are more pronounced than dark spots. If the eyes are reflecting the ground and there is a very prominent light source hitting the ground those spots reflect more in the eye than the parts in shadow.



  • my eye settings
    adjust amount of reflection on eye surface depending on lighting/envrioshere. adjust brightness of sclera to taste with the HSV node.0_1466967126471_Eye settings.jpg


  • Poser Ambassadors

    Thank you for your kind words @n-i-c-l-a-s ... It has been almost 20 years since I've drawn with Prismacolor due to my visual impairment. This is one of my pieces I'm most proud of.

    @Teyon : thank you for moving this thread ... I'm so sorry I took the bait like I did. Eyes are a "Pet project" of mine and it just bothered me.

    @James_in_3D : you have some observations here. I love what you have!

    @ghostship : That is great settings! I love it as well.

    @pumeco: If your phrasing was far more humble without absolutes and global generalizations ... I'm sure your opinions would be accepted more graciously. This is after all art and art is not a science but subjective and we all have our views.

    As for convergence. The separate ... and "circle lining up" technique is wonderful ... and I've observed some people DON"T have eyes that line up. * don't bet that's because I am blind in one eye and have nastagmas. Take a look at photos of Britney Spears ... especially her younger images ... the shape of her eye sockets make her appear slightly cross-eyed at times. But at the same time it is an engaging expression.



  • @ghostship said in Thoughts on Eyes:

    my eye settings
    adjust amount of reflection on eye surface depending on lighting/envrioshere. adjust brightness of sclera to taste with the HSV node.!

    That is a stunning result! Wow. Thank you for posting your formula! :)



  • @Boni said in Thoughts on Eyes:

    Thank you for your kind words @n-i-c-l-a-s ... It has been almost 20 years since I've drawn with Prismacolor due to my visual impairment. This is one of my pieces I'm most proud of.

    @Teyon : thank you for moving this thread ... I'm so sorry I took the bait like I did. Eyes are a "Pet project" of mine and it just bothered me.

    @James_in_3D : you have some observations here. I love what you have!

    @ghostship : That is great settings! I love it as well.

    @pumeco: If your phrasing was far more humble without absolutes and global generalizations ... I'm sure your opinions would be accepted more graciously. This is after all art and art is not a science but subjective and we all have our views.

    As for convergence. The separate ... and "circle lining up" technique is wonderful ... and I've observed some people DON"T have eyes that line up. * don't bet that's because I am blind in one eye and have nastagmas. Take a look at photos of Britney Spears ... especially her younger images ... the shape of her eye sockets make her appear slightly cross-eyed at times. But at the same time it is an engaging expression.

    Boni, that's a lovely drawing. :) I never mastered Prismacolors. Just stuck with pencil, and pen and ink. Not that I "mastered" those, either! ;)

    David Tennant is another celeb whose eyes aren't quite perfectly aligned. Hard to notice unless he's looking right at the camera, but one iris aims a bit lower than the other.