Can't grow current group of trimesh object in Grouping Tool

  • Has anyone noticed a problem with triangular only (no quad polys) meshes in the Grouping Tool? I'm trying to rig a model which I've 3D printed by importing the wavefront obj, and it's all triangles. When I create a group and select an area, the Grouping Tool adds the selected polys to the group, but I used to be able to just press the + on the keypad or Shift = and have it add adjacent polys to the current group. Nothing's happening with this mesh, and it has lots and lots of hidden polys that will take forever to select if I can't just grow the current group.

    [Damn, forgot I can't upload an image until I post and edit the new thread. GRRR How inconvenience!!!]
    [Edit to post image]
    0_1527164165914_Screen Shot 2018-05-24 at 10.13.24 pm.png

    Anyone got a good, free trimesh to quad python script? I've searched; so far with no success. There ought to be one bundled with Poser, since it purports to only like quad meshes (obviously, in this case).

    Oh, ^ makes v:

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Hallo; What are these thin long triangles at the bottom? ? ? Poser hates thin long triangles. Also : I see a mesh that would become useful at 1/10 the polycount.
    It is better to model lower polycount and use Posers SubD at render time. (Saves a TON of work, is less memory intensive and gives better results.

    On a side note;
    Don't use Poser's grouping tool.
    When you save the obj file, it will get split into individual vertex groups with double verts at all welds and that will get you in trouble further down the road.

    • Remodel the bottom with proper geometry. (no long tri's but even quads)

    • Remodel in quads at 1/10 the polycount

    • Create the vertex groups in a modelling app and save out a properly vertex grouped and welded obj.

    • Then rig in Poser, save to library and delete the Poser saved obj file (it is split at save again)

    • Edit the cr2 to your properly vertex grouped and welded obj file. (or rename)
      => See Video 4 in my Poser2Blender2Poser series on YouTube.

    PS: Due to a long standing bug in Poser the following functions are broken.:

    • The grouping tool (for rigged obj)
    • The autogroup function in the setup and fitting room.

    Each time the resulting saved obj is split into individual and unwelded vertex groups with double verts at all welds.
    => The saved cr2's are good, the obj files are not.
    => Always edit the cr2's to properly vertex grouped and welded obj files.

    Best regards, Tony

  • @vilters please don't berate me for the abysmal or otherwise quality of someone else's mesh. This model is NOT designed for Poser. It's origins are as an STL file for 3D printing in (I guess) 3DS Max. I'm not the author, so I won't be offended in any way, and I agree with your assessment of the mesh as a Poser object.

    However, it is what it is, and I'd still like to be able to make use of the tools I'm most familiar with (Poser, though shedding a tear for the mouldering, zombie corpse of Hexagon) to turn this into a usable Poser prop. But, before I can do anything, I need to group the polygons into the intended animatable actors (4 irising leaves, outer knurled cam sphere, and inner sphere with integral, knobbed base). Since they are all concentric, it's exceedingly difficult (I even tried this in meshlab, which I just recently acquired, and it fails abysmally too) to visually select contiguous polys (and since it's actually designed to be 3D printed, there are probably some support facets which should be cut away after printing) that you can't easily see (without tedious and repetitive camera moves and hither adjustment), so selecting a visible facet and growing the selection is what I've always done with complicated, layered hair props, to define groups for selective deformer application.

    My Silo-fu is nowhere near my Hexagon-fu used to be, so I'm stuck in Poser, wishing my plus key would add facets to the group I've just defined and added a single facet to. I have no intention of remodelling this from scratch. I shouldn't have to, as I have a mesh that I should be able to work with. (Meshlab also failed to work with any of the options for reducing triangles to quads, so it's broken, or there's something seriously wrong with this mesh - apart from what we agree is overkill and inappropriately modelled for Poser).

    Damn, I really don't want to have to write a facet-processing Python script just to grow groups on this model. Maybe I should see what PPro2014 does (Urk, except I forgot that having cloned my boot SSD, and had to use the SM License Manager less than a month ago, I probably won't be able to activate my existing PPro2014. Damn, again!)

    I hear your exhortations about not grouping in Poser, but this is a solid, articulated, but non-bending model, so none of the separate parts should be sharing any vertices or have bend zones at all. There are, as yet, no groups at all in this model, so regrouping is a complete non-issue.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    Thanks for the explanation.
    So you need to create vertex groups to get a rigging going.

    Not knowing the mesh, but looking at it, Hexagon should be good to go to create vertex groups and delete the printing support items.

    (After starting 3D construction in anim8or, I had a brief go in Hexagon, but now it's Blender. and in Blender these things are easy.)

    You make me think…….
    Even if you "could" use the Poser group editor, Poser is no 3D app.
    => It can not "delete" support verts, edges or polygons from a mesh.

    So, if there are any support items?
    You will have to clean them out externally, and then try to vertex group it.

  • You said there were a lot of hidden vertices?

    Well, I have always LOVED Poser's Grouping tool. But what I do is to turn on the what's the name ... front, right, top ect cameras. And then look at the obs in wireframe view. That way I can easily and fast select large portions of something, all the way around, in one go.

    BTW... I have some Hexagon problems, and it sounds like you're the person I've been looking for? It's OT for this, but do you mind if I PM'ed you a question about Hexagon? :3

  • @trekkiegrrrl happy to help or chat, though I'll be out for a couple of hours shortly.

    The big problem with this object is the concentric, onion skins. I'm currently using an orbiting camera with a Custom Parameter palette, so I can drive the camera rotations and hither while the object is still selected, to give a circular window through foreground layers to select facets within. I've just realised I should also increase the focal length to flatten the image and make more of the inner layers visible.

    I've opened this object (originally a Solidworks STL file) in a few editors now, and I realise I may have to follow @vilters suggestion and recreate the object. I may be able to use the original to define dimensions and derive the complex profile of the irising leaves, to drive boolean functions. I used to love Hexagon, and did some serious modelling work in it, but the UI got badly broken a few versions back and now it's orphaned totally.

    I think the file I have has been post-processed so many times, that it bears very little relation to the original model. There are stupid, narrow triangles all over the place which have no reason to exist and are probably what causes the grow selection to overflow it's buffers and silently fail (in Poser, Hexagon and meshlab). Maybe I'll try Cheetah3D and Silo next.

  • @anomalaus Why not give Blender a go. You can define vertex groups (and optionally save them as poly groups on export. Or better still define different mats for your intended groups. then in poser you can create new groups based of those mats, then select everything and make a single mat zone.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    @anomalaus said in Can't grow current group of trimesh object in Grouping Tool:> Anyone got a good, free trimesh to quad python script?

    You could subdivide the mesh in Poser and export it as such, if the mesh tolerates subdivision.0_1527240500785_dontKnow.gif

  • @seachnasaigh I already tried the trimesh to quad options in meshlab, but it barfed on this file, which is already topheavy with polygons and redundant sliver triangles. I believe it originated in SolidWorks, as the cleanest and simplest version of the file is a .SLDPRT, but I only have a viewer app for SolidWorks, which can't export anything other than image files, so is useless for converting to any other format.

    I certainly don't need or want any more detail on the object. It's way over the top for what my original purpose in Poser was (rig the moving parts and inspect them so I could work out where the 3D printed model was sticking and exhibiting excessive friction and pivot dislocation. Since it's 3D printed in place, it can't be disassembled for inspection without destroying it... Oh, I see, you mean subdivide it so the triangles become multiple quads, to see if it behaves better. Well, I would if I could restrict Poser's subdivision algorithm to a single group, rather than the whole object. But then we're back to "There's a hole in my bucket" territory, again.

    @amethystpendant grumbles. Every time I open another 3D application I get slapped in the face with "this was developed on a Windows or Linux platform where the three-button-mouse was invented before cathode ray tubes existed" and "What? Doesn't everyone use a three button mouse?". I have a trackpad on macOS Sierra, so I don't want two thirds of the UI and all of the useful shortcuts hidden behind switches I don't have.

    OK, I admit the UI paradigm shifts are hurdles my atrophied gray matter is struggling to cope with. Hexagon, when it used to work properly was difficult enough to come to grips with, and now that it's broken, I'm still not quite ready to put all my eggs in the blender. [Sorry, that pitiful excuse for a pun just slipped through the good taste censor. Bad hand!] I guess I'll just have to commit and dive in (damn, those blades look sharp).

  • Poser Ambassadors

    @anomalaus - have you tried opening the mesh in Silo? Is the model publicly available anywhere?

  • Poser Ambassadors

    In case anyone's wondering, Silo 2.5.3 can import the following formats:
    0_1527265313471_Silo 2'5'3 import formats.png

    ...and export:
    0_1527265343804_Silo 2'5'3 export formats.png

  • @caisson it's here Preassembled Iris Box. When you download and extract the zip archive, under files there are an eyeball4_2.STL file which is the 3D printing source, and contains extra vertices to join the separate parts together for printing, and an eyeball4_2.SLDPRT file which has the clean geometry, but can't be converted or extracted unless you have a full version of SolidWorks. It also seems to be recent enough that the pre-2015 hacks for extracting the contents don't work. Adobe Acrobat Pro is supposed to be able to view those files, but it says the file is broken. The SolidWorks viewer for macOS opens it with no trouble, but can't export anything except images.

    @seachnasaigh the STL file is easy enough to convert to obj, but is not clean geometry. I have the Steam version of Silo 2.5.4 Pro and can open the STL file, but I'm not familiar enough with Silo yet to do anything meaningful, like convert tris to quads, or group and save as obj.

    0_1527269878950_Screen Shot 2018-05-26 at 3.37.13 am.png

  • @caisson & @seachnasaigh alright! I've found out how to grow a selection in Silo, and it seems to be working on this object! Woo hoo!

    OK, all levity aside. A big thankyou to everyone for your positive responses and support. Silo came to me via one of those special, never to be repeated discounts, so it was just affordable to me at the time. I spent a little time playing with it, but quickly became frustrated, because all the shortcut functionality for movement and view changing and selection seemed to be locked away behind middle or multi-mouse-button paradigms, which cause me to grind my teeth to stubs. On this occasion I will persevere, since this is the furthest I have got in any app with growing selections (now, if only auto-repeat would work on that = key...).

  • @anomalaus

    Modo has a "Detriangulate" feature that appears to be working as well.

    Though there are no UV maps on the OBJ, therefore no material zones or groups.

  • Poser Ambassadors

    @anomalaus - in Silo double-click to select contiguous geometry; copy & paste with Scene Editor open to get new separate objects. Could save each piece as a separate obj, import all to Poser, arrange hierarchy in Hierarchy palette then click Create New Figure button & rig from there.

    Looking at that geo I wouldn't bother trying to alter it unless you have a real need, it'll take a while ;)

  • @caisson
    Yup. Especially the base. Yowza.

  • Actually, I found another scheme in Poser itself which can reveal onion skin layers, though tediously with such a high poly object (113924 tris, according to Silo). If I set a deformer with a constant falloff operating on a single group to translate polys in that group out of frame, everything underneath is revealed. Though the fact that Poser can't easily delete polys or close open manifolds is a pain. Once I have groups, I can always spawn props to separate them for rigging, and since I don't plan to re-export this for use outside Poser, it doesn't matter if the props aren't closed manifolds.

    The biggest pain is that this object has extra facets which weld all of the parts together, and not in a clean way where I could just delete the facets I don't want, since they overlap boundaries horribly.

    0_1527329309810_Screen Shot 2018-05-26 at 8.08.04 pm.png
    From Silo, showing facets defining support material to be removed after 3D printing, to separate the articulated parts, but overlapping the actual part boundaries.